Brittney is free, Paul was left behind - again | Pod Hostage Diplomacy

Brittney Griner is free, Paul Whelan was left behind – again!

SPEAKERS

Elizabeth Whelan, Daren Nair

Daren Nair  00:05

Welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. We work to free hostages and the unjustly detained around the world. Together with their families, we share their stories and let you know how you can help bring them home.

Elizabeth Whelan  00:18

Now when it comes to using the family to get... for Russia to get what they want, if that's the case, they've picked the wrong family because I'm not going to carry water for the Russian authorities.

Daren Nair  00:28

These are some of the most courageous and resilient people among us.

Mariam Claren  00:32

I never thought that my mother, Nahid Taghavi, will ever have a link to negotiations in Vienna about the JCPOA. That's so crazy.

Daren Nair  00:43

People who have never given up hope.

Paula Reed  00:46

Trevor told his girlfriend to tell me to... to be strong. So, I'm trying to be strong for Trevor.

Joey Reed  00:50

You know, if Trevor can cope with what he's dealing with...

Paula Reed  00:53

Exactly.

Joey Reed  00:53

We can sure cope with the stress.

Daren Nair  00:55

People who will never stop working to reunite their families. 

Joey Reed  01:00

We'd like to meet with the President. We believe that, you know, he has... he's surrounded by lots of experienced and educated advisors. But I don't believe that any of them have ever had a child taken hostage by a foreign country, especially not a superpower like Russia.

Daren Nair  01:15

And we will be right there by their side until their loved one comes back home. 

Richard Ratcliffe  01:20

Because if enough people care, then the right people will care enough. 

Daren Nair  01:24

I'm Daren Nair, and I've been campaigning with many of these families for years. When I first started campaigning with these families, I noticed they struggled to get the media attention they needed. So, I decided to create this podcast, which is a safe space for the families to speak as long as they need to about their loved ones, and what needs to be done to bring them home.

Mariam Claren  01:45

Nobody can prepare you for what our family's going through. Even if someone had told me one year before, "in one year, this is going to happen. Prepare yourself." It's impossible.

Daren Nair  02:01

Thank you for listening, and welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. Welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. Paul Whelan is an American citizen and a former US Marine. He has been imprisoned in Russia since 28 December 2018. The US State Department has classified Paul as wrongfully detained and President of the United States, Joe Biden, has publicly called for his release. Next week will mark four years since Paul has been wrongfully detained in Russia. On 8 December, fellow American and WNBA athlete, Brittney Griner, who was detained in Russia earlier this year, was freed in a prisoner swap between the US and Russia. Unfortunately, Paul Whelan was once again left behind. The last time Paul Whelan was left behind in a prisoner swap that freed an American citizen in Russia was in April this year. American and fellow Marine veteran, Trevor Reed, was freed and Paul was left behind. The following remarks were from President Biden on the day of Brittney's release. "Moments ago, standing together with her wife, Cherelle, in the Oval Office, I spoke with Brittney Griner. She's safe. She's on a plane. She's on her way home. After months of being unjustly detained in Russia, held under intolerable circumstances, Brittney will soon be back in the arms of her loved ones, and she should have been there all along. This is a day we've worked toward for a long time. We never stopped pushing for her release. It took painstaking and intense negotiations. And I want to thank all the hard working public servants across my administration who worked tirelessly to secure her release. I also want to thank the UAE for helping us facilitate Brittney's return, because that's where she landed. These past few months have been hell for Brittney, and for Cherelle, and her entire family and all her teammates back home. People across the country have learned about Brittney's story, advocated for her release, stood with her throughout this terrible ordeal. And I know that support meant a lot to her family. I'm glad to be able to say that Brittney is in good spirits. She... She's relieved to finally be heading home. And the fact remains that she's lost months of her life, experienced a needless trauma, and she deserves space, privacy and time with her loved ones to recover and heal from her time being wrongfully detained. Brittney is an incomparable athlete, a two-time Olympic gold medalist for Team USA. She endured mistreatment and a show... at a show trial in Russia with characteristic grit and incredible dignity. She represents the best America, the best about America, just across the board, everything about her. She wrote to me back in July. She didn't ask for special treatment. Even though we've been working on her release from Day One. She requested a simple quote. "Please don't forget about me and the other American detainees. Please do all you can to bring us home." We never forgot about Brittney. And we have not forgotten about Paul Whelan, who has been unjustly detained in Russia for years. This was not a choice of which American to bring home. We brought home Trevor Reed when we had a chance earlier this year. Sadly, for totally illegitimate reasons, Russia is treating Paul's case differently than Brittney's. And while we have not yet succeeded in securing Paul's release, we are not giving up. We will never give up. We remain in close touch with Paul's family, the Whelan family, and my thoughts and prayers are with them today. They have to have such mixed emotions today. And we will keep negotiating in good faith for Paul's release. I guarantee that. I say that to the family, I guarantee you. And I urge Russia to do the same to ensure that Paul's health and humane treatment are maintained until we can... are able to bring him home. I don't want any American to sit wrongfully detained one extra day, if we can bring that person home. My administration has now brought home dozens of Americans who were wrongfully detained or held hostage abroad, many of whom had been held since before I took office. And today, we also remember the other Americans that are being held hostage and wrongfully detained in Russia, or anywhere else in the world. Reuniting these Americans with their loved ones remains a priority, a priority for my administration, and every person in my administration involved in this. And we're going to continue to work to bring every American who continues to endure such an injustice. We also want to prevent any more American families from suffering this pain and separation. And I strongly urge... I strongly urge all Americans to take precautions, including reviewing the State Department's travel advisories before they travel overseas, which now includes warnings about the risk of being wrongfully detained by a foreign government. Make no mistake about it. This work is not easy. Negotiations are always difficult. There are never any guarantees. But it's my job as President of the United States to make the hard calls and protect American citizens everywhere in the world, anywhere in the world. And I'm proud that today, we have made one more family whole again. So. welcome home, Brittney." Those were remarks from President Biden on Brittney Griner's release. We are so happy for Brittney Griner, her wife, Cherelle, and everyone who campaigned to bring Brittney home. We are grateful to President Biden, US State Department, the office of the US Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs, led by Ambassador Roger Carstens, as well as the Richardson Center for their efforts in bringing Brittney home. We are also so sorry for Paul Whelan and the Whelan family, as he was once again left behind. We've interviewed Paul's sister, Elizabeth Whelan, four times in this podcast. And every time we've spoken to her, we've told her that "we will keep campaigning by your side until Paul comes home." And we mean it. Today, we have the honour of speaking to Elizabeth Whelan again. Elizabeth, I'm so sorry that Paul was left behind. We will keep campaigning with you until Paul is free and back home. Thank you for joining us.

Elizabeth Whelan  08:08

Thank you so much, Daren. We really appreciate this opportunity. It's unfortunate to have to talk to you again about the circumstances that have left Paul behind. But hopefully, one day we'll have some better news to share.

Daren Nair  08:21

I hope so, too. This is the fifth time you've been on this podcast, which is more times than anyone else. And we're in it for the long haul until Paul comes back home. Elizabeth, I interviewed you a few days after Trevor Reed was released in a prisoner swap in April, and Paul was left behind. At that time, you were not happy that the US State Department notified you that Trevor was being released, and Paul was being left behind only a few hours before the swap happened, and news outlets started reporting on it. This sadly resulted in Paul finding out he was left behind by watching the news in prison. Your family also didn't have much time to process this news. What was the experience like this time around?

Elizabeth Whelan  09:06

Thank you, Daren. This has been a very difficult year for our family, and for Paul in particular. As you mentioned, you know, finding the news out about Trevor coming home, and then now a second American, released from imprisonment in... in Russia, and Paul is still there. Luckily this time, we had a little bit more notice. After Paul was left behind and Trevor came home, I went to the State Department and asked for not just for us but for any other family. Obviously, this situation can happen where the country that's holding the American decides to do a deal for one person and not for the other. And so, with that in mind, I asked: "could we please have some notice next time if this... if this really does happen or any other family? You know, surely we deserve a little bit more." And you can sort of understand why we weren't given the notice upfront for... for Trevor. You know, the operations end of... end of things, they don't want us messing it up. But I think that families, especially once you've been working side-by-side with the government for so long, deserve a little bit more warning. And so this time, they sent a State Department official up to... to see me at my home the night before, the Wednesday night before Brittney was released, and also somebody called Paul. Evidently, that was a difficult call to make, to get from the United States government into the prison over in Mordovia. But Paul was able to find out that Brittney had been released and that he had not been before the news hit. And that really helped us accept the situation and be able to discuss it properly in the media.

Daren Nair  10:50

Again, I'm sorry, Elizabeth, that Paul was left behind, and you and your family had to go through this again. I'm sure the US government, President Biden and the State Department weren't happy either, that they weren't able to bring Paul back home. So hopefully, next time, Paul will be coming back home. Now, how did your brother, Paul, take the news that he was being left behind again? Because the last time I spoke to you, you mentioned it was heartbreaking for your parents to hear him in agony, basically, that he was left behind. What was it like this time for Paul?

Elizabeth Whelan  11:30

Well, it was definitely a different experience. You're right that the US government was not at all happy to either have to tell us the news or have a deal made by Russia that purposefully excluded Paul. I think having the advance notice allowed Paul and the official to have a long conversation about the whys and wherefores, so that by the time he did speak to our parents on the Thursday morning, he was very calm and collected, not happy. Nobody wants to be left in this situation. But as you had noted earlier, it's been almost four years, but at least we were able to logically process what had happened. And, of course, what happened was that Russia was never going to let President Biden have the win of bringing both Paul and Brittney home. They divided up the... the deals, even though the US was pressing to get both of them back at the same time. And the administration was given the awful choice of either bringing back Brittney and doing the one deal, or bringing home no one as Paul wasn't even on the table. So, I think that having that little bit of time to process that information, it didn't make any of us happy, but, at least, it wasn't only 30 minutes this time. That... that really did help.

Daren Nair  12:45

Speaking of the swap for Paul, there have been media reports that the Russians wanted to swap Paul for a spy currently imprisoned in Germany, who was charged with murder. What are your thoughts on these reports?

Elizabeth Whelan  12:58

Oh, my goodness, the amount of speculation that's gone on over the four years about all the different people that can be traded for Paul. You know, from the very first, Russia started, you know, within days of arresting Paul on... on false charges, they started putting out names of people that they would be interested in trading with. Obviously, nothing happened for Paul during the... the Trump administration, unfortunately. And then we got to the Biden administration, and it seemed that Russia had decided that all the effort they went to to set up Paul wasn't really necessary. They could just arrest Americans straight out and hold them as wrongful detainees. And so, watching all of this happen, and then seeing, you know, Trevor, come home and Brittney come home, we've also noticed that the price for Paul has increased as this has happened. And the Russian authorities are just asking for more and more ridiculous things in an effort to continue to separate Paul out, which they know causes a lot of trouble back home. They know that causes a great deal of dissension, and that's what they're all about is trying to stir up trouble and chaos at... at our end.

Daren Nair  14:08

Elizabeth, you're absolutely right. I believe it was Fiona Hill, herself, who said what the Russians are trying to do is interfere with our domestic politics as well. And the pushback from politicians and other people within the United States on this prisoner exchange, where Brittney was brought home and Paul, a veteran, was left behind, has really caused some issues back home. So, many of these people who are now complaining that we left the veteran behind, never really mentioned Paul's name publicly until a few days ago. What are your thoughts on this?

Elizabeth Whelan  14:46

Well, you can imagine there was some eye rolling going on at our end. But you know, we have to continue to look at, you know, you have to make lemonade out of lemons, as they say. So, all of these people are now aware of Paul, even if they weren't before. I'm going to definitely be getting in touch with every single Congressman and woman's office who has suddenly started speaking out for Paul, because we could use their support. Many of these are people I've contacted over the last four years. I could have used their support before, but let's not look backwards, and... and we'll go with what we have at the moment. But I do think that there are those people, whether... whether pundits, or government officials, or former government officials, who are unfortunately playing along with what the Kremlin wants. The Kremlin wants this division. It wants people blaming the current president. It wants people blaming the former president. That's exactly what Russia is thriving on at this point. When it comes down to it, we're dealing with a weak, hostile foreign country. And this is something that's common throughout all of these wrongful detentions. We've got these countries, who the only way they can exert any power over the United States is to wrongfully detain their citizens and try to get something back. What we need is for all of these Congresspeople, pundits, etc. to start supporting whatever current administration it is, doesn't matter which side of the aisle, to help get Americans home, and to also recognise that the divisions that we see are being exacerbated and encouraged by that hostile government trying to undermine the strength of America. It's... it's really important to keep that top of mind.

Daren Nair  16:38

Now for all our new listeners who weren't aware of Paul's case before, and now want to help bring him home, can you please give them a brief overview of how Paul was arrested?

Elizabeth Whelan  16:47

Absolutely. And first, you know, thank you to anyone who is listening now and trying to find out more about Paul Whelan, my brother. I just... I can't thank you enough for your... for your time and attention. It is very difficult for a small family, just living a normal life to have a family member wrongfully detained in a foreign country, and then have to convince your own government to do what it takes to bring your loved one home. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of dedicated people within the government. But it also is so helpful to have you alongside us. So, I'll tell you a little bit about what happened. Paul was working. He is 52 years old, now. At the time, he was 48. He was working as a... in corporate security for a large automotive company here in the United States. And he would travel a lot and always enjoyed travelling and travelled a lot on vacations as well and had been to Russia a number of times, as well as other... all kinds of other countries: India, China, Korea, Vienna, going to Austria, you know, England, all over the place. And this was just such a part of the Paul I knew, as somebody who really enjoyed the travel and meeting people all over the place. An American friend of his, who married a Russian woman in California, was going back to have a second ceremony in Moscow for his wife's family and asked Paul to come along, knowing that Paul had been a tourist in Moscow before, to help guide the American tourists around, you know, show them the art galleries and that kind of thing. And Paul, for this friend, decided he would do that. It was during that time that the Russian security services, the FSB, set him up for espionage, and did that by using a person who he had known for quite a while on these trips, to give him a USB drive. And then Paul was getting ready for the wedding. The FSB then knocked down the door, basically, arrested Paul five minutes later and said that he was holding a USB drive that had state secrets on it. So, this is the sort of thing that one imagines or sees in movies. You never think it's actually going to happen to you. When they arrested him, they held him, not allowing the US consular services to see him for almost a week. During that time, he was appointed a lawyer, who was a Russian fellow, not somebody we knew. And by the time that the consular folks were able to see Paul, Paul had been charged with espionage, which nobody believed to be true. No one believed that Paul was a spy. However, they still held Paul for 18 months in a notorious prison in... in Moscow called Lefortovo, held a sham trial, much like what we just saw happened with Brittney Griner. And, you know, many hearings that Paul was not allowed to speak to anybody. He started... you might have seen pictures of him holding up sheets of papers, you know, with notes to media, because he wasn't allowed to actually talk to anyone. And we were not able to speak to him for about 18 months ourselves, only send letters back and forth that took about six months to go either way. It was a very frustrating and trying and exhausting time for all of us, but particularly for Paul, who did not know whether we, back here in the US, really believed that these charges were true. As it was, we did not. We never believed these charges were true. But now we're in this situation where Paul has been held. He's now in a... a prison camp in a province called Mordovia. And he has now been there for two years. While this travesty goes on, as I mentioned, the Russians have gotten lazy over time. They realise they can just now outright arrest Americans without going through all the theatrics of... of a setup. But Paul, unfortunately, was subject to all of that.

Daren Nair  20:51

Elizabeth, I absolutely agree with you that this is Russia practicing hostage diplomacy, also known as state-sponsored hostage-taking, taking an innocent American captive, putting them in prison on false charges and sending... sentencing them to years in prison for the sole purpose of extracting concessions from the US government. They did this to Trevor Reed, and now they're doing it to Paul Whelan. Paul was recently admitted to hospital. Can you tell us more about this? Because it wasn't the first time he's been admitted to hospital in the four years. He had to undergo emergency surgery previously. What happened this time?

Elizabeth Whelan  21:30

Well, as you said, he had emergency surgery right about the time of his trial in 2020, and that was a horrible experience. And then he works... This is a forced labour camp he's at. He does do work. It's actually a garment factory that makes uniforms and that sort of thing. And he's had various different injuries to do with the work that he's done there, not ones that we might consider, you know, terribly life-threatening, but when it's forced labour, it means you have to keep working, even if you're injured. And so Paul has had to go back and forth to the prison hospital several times to be treated for... for those injuries. But most recently, he's been disappeared a couple of times. And we have discovered that he has been sent to the prison hospital, which is in a different location, for... when he doesn't have an injury. And Paul has been a bit, you know, confused himself as to why that might be, although he has speculated that with the prisoners being recruited to fight in the war against Ukraine, that perhaps they are getting pulled out of the way so that he can't see and report out on what's happening. But it's what... if you're a prisoner in a... in a labour camp in Russia, your life is not your own. You don't make your own choices. You know, Paul, as long as he is there, he is in danger from other inmates. He is subject to the whims of whoever happens to be running the prison at that time. And we also have the situation with a war in Ukraine going on around him. So, it's... it's not a comfortable situation for anyone to be in and to watch other Americans come home, who have been arrested since you were arrested, and are going home before you go home, has got to be extremely worrying for him.

Daren Nair  23:20

What should the Russian government do, because ultimately, they're responsible for... for all of this. 

Elizabeth Whelan  23:28

Right. They absolutely are, 100%. And sorry about interrupting you there, Daren. But you can tell that I'm vehement. They should never have arrested Paul in the first place. This entire theatrical setup, you know, having his... people he considered his friends betray him, it's such a... it's so stereotypically Russian, it's really quite ridiculous. It is too bad that the Russia that we tend to think of in terms of the arts and the creativity and... and history and such, that is a Russia of many decades, if not hundreds of years ago, and that the modern Russia is obviously so weak that its only way to deal with foreign countries is to take Americans hostage and hold them for something. This is not the way forward, and I hope that we do see a Russia that is far more sensible in the future, that comes to the negotiating table, realising that we're all quite aware of what they're doing, and it isn't working. Yes, they may be holding Paul, but they are not increasing their stature in any way by doing so. They need to release Paul. That's all there is to it. He didn't do anything wrong. They know he didn't do anything wrong. It's ridiculous to be asking for an assassin or anything. Even a shoplifter is more of a criminal than my brother. So, yeah, let him go, Russia.

Daren Nair  24:58

Hashtag Free Paul Whelan.

Elizabeth Whelan  25:00

Exactly.

Daren Nair  25:02

What should the US government do?

Elizabeth Whelan  25:06

Well, I have to say that, you know, throughout both administrations, there have been so many people working hard to try to get Paul home. And particularly, I have to, you know, Ambassador Huntsman, Ambassador Sullivan, the people at... at the Embassy, the State Department, Members of Congress, it goes on and on and all of this support. But I think we have to look very clear-eyed at the situation right now. Two deals have been done that have not included Paul. We can't go back to the negotiating table in the same way, this time. I'm definitely encouraging the US government to try something new. I don't know what that new thing is. I can't... I can't pretend to be involved in the negotiations or... or know what's being asked or demanded. But we have to shake this up. This is a ridiculous situation that needs to come to an end.

Daren Nair  25:55

I agree with you. Paul, is also a citizen of the UK, Canada, and Ireland. So, he's a citizen of four countries. And at the beginning, people thought he must have been a real life Jason Bourne, because he had four passports. But that's not the case. Can you explain why he has four passports? And how the other countries have been helping, because I... we discussed this in our first episode, when I first spoke to you last year, and you mentioned that the British Embassy and the Irish embassy in Russia have visited Paul. So, can you just tell us more about how... how he came to have four passports and what the other governments have been doing to help, and what can... what else can they do to help?

Elizabeth Whelan  26:47

Absolutely. So Paul's in a... he's actually in a very lucky position that not too many people are to have all of these citizenships. I was born in... in the UK, and my parents and I, we moved to Canada. All my brothers were born in Canada. So, Paul popped out already having two citizenships: British and Canadian. We then moved to the United States, and he was actually the first in our family to get US citizenship. And then we found out that Ireland was allowing Irish nationals, foreign-born nationals, with ties back to Ireland through grandparents or whatever, to also have citizenship. And so, Paul and I both became Irish citizens as well. So, I have three passports, and he has four. This, as you said, for a lot of people who don't even have one passport, makes him sound very much like spy material. But I have to tell you that spies with multiple passports are most likely to have those passports in different names, and not have four passports all in the same name. It is actually quite common for... for people to have more than one passport. It's... it's one of those things, though, I think they did probably surprise the Russians. When Paul was arrested, he was not only calling for the US Consulate people to come and visit him but said, "you also need to call the Canadians, the British and the Irish, because I want to see all of them." And I have to say the embassies have been fantastic about supporting Paul. Not only have actual ambassadors gone to his hearings, they have visited him in Mordovia, they realise that this whole business of foreign countries holding citizens wrongfully has got to stop, and they're showing their overt support by... by visiting. And of course, all of these people are also helping make food deliveries for Paul or take him supplies when the prison allows. You know, they've just been wonderful. Now, it is up to the US to lead the... the whole charge to get Paul released. What tends to happen if you are a dual citizen and you're travelling on one of your passports, and something happens to you, usually the country whose passport you were travelling on is the one who ends up having to deal with whatever situation comes up. That's just sort of the way that these countries tend to work that. So, the US has the lead on negotiating for Paul, but the other countries are supporting that effort.

Daren Nair  29:19

Well, that's good to know. I did try getting British Members of Parliament to take up Paul's case here in the UK, unsuccessfully though. But it's good that the US is taking the lead and, at least, the British Embassy in Russia is providing support to Paul. What can journalists and news outlets do to help? I know we discussed this in our previous episodes. Again, I'm sorry for what Brittney Griner had to go through. But I guess what her detention did was elevate this issue of hostage diplomacy and... and that, in a way, helped all the other families, because not many people, not as many people cared about wrongful detentions abroad. Not many people knew that there were so many Americans wrongfully detained abroad until this happened to Brittney Griner. And after this happened to Brittany, many more journalists started to cover this issue. And, to their credit, some of them are still covering this issue. And they've started speaking to other families, too. What can journalists and news outlets do more to help?

Elizabeth Whelan  30:33

Well, first, let me just say, Daren, thank you so much for your outreach to the UK Government. My... the larger Whelan family in the UK has done the same thing. And it's... it can be frustrating to try to get help and not actually get more than sort of a form letter in return. But I really appreciate your efforts. But moving on to the... to the question of media, I think, you know, to begin with, our family is really glad that Brittney is home, just as we were with Trevor. There have been efforts in the media at various times to just sort of pit our family against these other families. They want some sort of, you know, cage-match, something like that going on. And that's absolutely not going to happen. We feel solidarity with every single one of the families whose loved one is held overseas, not just other Americans. But this... this problem is going on in other countries, too. You know, there are people from Britain being held by these same countries, you know, people from Germany held by the same countries. So... so, this is a problem. And we feel a lot of solidarity and fellow feeling with anybody who's going through it. And so, when it comes to... to journalists, we have had all of this attention because of Brittney's celebrity. It has certainly shone a light on wrongful detention overall. But it is difficult to get some journalists to focus on the real problem, which is not what is Biden doing wrong, or what is Trump... what did Trump do wrong or, you know, fomenting any of the partisan politics already going on. It's not a matter of, you know, what we think of Brittney's celebrity or what we don't think. It's very difficult to get everyone to focus on the real problem, which is Russia. Russia is the one that set up Paul. Russia is the one that arrested Brittney. Russia is the one that arrested Trevor and decided for both of them to give them ridiculous sentences as part of this coercion. Wrongful detention doesn't always mean that somebody has been arrested and they were innocent completely of a crime. Sometimes, there is some morsel that the foreign country can hold on to, but then greatly inflate what they... how they sentence or some other treatment that they give to the American to be able to use them in a coercive manner. And this sort of understanding of what goes on with wrongful detention is really important for journalists and media to know about, because it isn't just a matter of, "oh, Biden must have picked so and so because of their celebrity." That is not at all what happens. What happens is foreign countries realise that they can drive wedges into, in this case, the American people by pushing... pushing hot bus... hot button issues, such as... such as race, such as gender, or such as, oh, politics. It goes on and on. And they have unfortunately been very successful at doing this. And I would encourage media to stop playing along with that and tell a different story instead. And this is the story that I would like to... to suggest. At this particular point in time, now that Brittney is home and... and Paul is not and everybody has now become far more aware of Paul's situation, we've been receiving literally hundreds of messages to be read to Paul, and lots and lots of people likewise wanting to be able to mail cards or letters to Paul in support. And although some of them do, you know, throw shade at this president or that president or, you know, say things about Brittney or say things about Paul that, you know, aren't very pleasant, the majority, 98% of the messages we've been receiving, are simply about supporting Paul. This is an issue where we're hearing from people in Montana, Kentucky, California, you know, Massachusetts, Florida, Missouri, it goes on and on. We're hearing from people across the country, in their support for an American in a terrible position. This cuts across partisan lines. And this isn't... this is the story that needs to be told is that the Russians have tried to drive a wedge amongst Americans by allowing Brittney to come home before Paul. It has not worked. Instead, there's an enormous amount of unity, especially around the holidays, for somebody in this particular situation. And that is the story that needs to be told, that Russia has not succeeded in driving this wedge, that ordinary people understand what's going on. They see that it's Russia that is forcing this administration into a... into a really uncomfortable decision. "Do I bring anybody home? Or do I let them both stay over there?" And they decided to bring someone home and the Whelan family supports that. 

Daren Nair  35:17

There are things that the public can do to help bring Paul Whelan home, or at least show him that he's not forgotten, he's not alone, and that there is... that there is a world of care out there. You mentioned people can write letters and send cards to Paul himself in prison. Can you just elaborate further for our listeners? What exactly they can do? Who they can write to?

Elizabeth Whelan  35:47

Absolutely. So, this has been a bit of a confusing issue. When Russia started the war on Ukraine, all of a sudden, a lot of the mail services from the US stopped doing everything, FedEx, DHL. Everything just stopped going to Russia. And so, for a while there, we couldn't write any letters. But we can again. We have a website, freepaulwhelan.com, and there's a "Help Paul Whelan" page, and on there, you'll find an address you can use. It's actually a State Department address. The mail will go to the US Embassy in Moscow, and they make sure that Paul gets it. Now, it can take a long time to get to Paul. The prison censors have to go through each letter. I don't know how many people actually read English down in Mordovia, but it does seem to take a long time. But Paul does seem to get the bulk of the mail. He tries to respond, but once again, it takes a long time for any mail to... to get out. So, if you don't hear from him, don't worry, just keep sending him cards and letters, because he'll really appreciate it. He'll be able to thank people properly, you know, when he does get released and comes back home. We also have an email address there where you can email a short message that we can actually read to him over the phone. He only has very short phone calls with our parents, about 10 or 15 minutes. But we can show some of those messages that way. And then I can also send print out versions of those to Paul instead. So, for people who aren't really letter writers, but want to express solidarity or holiday greetings, that's one way to do it. Another way that's really helpful is to reach out to your Representatives and Members of Congress, Senators, and tell them what you... what you think about this. Tell them that you care deeply about Paul Whelan and you want to see him brought home. It does matter. It does... you might think that when you call and leave that message with a Member of Congress that nobody cares or notices, but they actually do. I've been in those offices, when those calls come in. The more calls somebody gets, the more they'll realise their constituents care, and they'll... they'll speak up, and they'll keep the pressure on the higher levels of the US government to make sure that this gets done. And then finally, we also have a GoFundMe account. And what that is for is to support Paul, while he's in prison. It helps pay for, oh, gosh... we've used it for everything, from everything to translating documents, because he doesn't speak Russian, to now it's for fruit, vegetables and food. Since the war on Ukraine, the prison food has become worse and worse. Everything from aspirin, toilet paper and medicine, writing paper, stamps, to keep his phone card up so that he can call the US Embassy in Moscow, which is a long distance call for him and his parents in Michigan, which is an international call for him. And then also to make sure that there's some money in his prison account, so that if, for some reason, the Embassy can't be in touch with him, he can still have... have food and supplies. So, you know, it's... it's really the only way we can continue to support him. Prisons in Russia are not like prisons in the US. They are much more... If you think of something from a 1940s war movie, it's much more like that, you know, and so this GoFundMe account is vital. The rest of our family covers our own expenses in terms of the other advocacy, such as my trips to DC and that sort of thing. So, 100% of the GoFundMe goes directly to help Paul, and we appreciate and thank everybody who's donated over these four years.

Daren Nair  39:27

Elizabeth, we're almost at the end of our interview. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Elizabeth Whelan  39:31

Well, this is sort of facetious but, you know, if... if President Putin likes Paul so much, I could paint a portrait of Paul and he could have that hanging at his... at his house and send my brother back home. You know, this is a ridiculous situation for a supposedly mature country to be in, that they're going to nab Americans and hold them hostage as a means of you know, as you said, hostage diplomacy. That's what we're talking about. I feel it's very important that our country get a handle on this and, actually, all Western countries get a handle on this. It's not... It's growing... It's a growing problem we're seeing more, and it happens more and more. We now have an Executive Order that the President put out this summer, calling for punishments and deterrants against these countries doing this sort of thing. And I hope to see it enacted. In the meantime, we have to continue to... to shed a light on what's actually going on, not blame the victim, not blame our own administration for being in a difficult position, but support them instead in their efforts to bring people home. We need everyone aware. And one of the reasons, you might be sitting in Iowa and go, "hey, I'm never even going to leave Iowa, why do I care? What was Paul doing in Russia, anyway?" My feeling is very strongly that if the United States has treaties and policies with other countries, if we are doing business in some way with other countries, if we are sending them humanitarian aid in any way, we should feel that we can travel to those countries should we want to without the fear of wrongful detention. And, at the time Paul went to Russia in 2018, 100 to 200,000 Americans a year were going to Russia, for tourism, for business, for all sorts of reasons. And there's absolutely no good reason at all that my brother should have been wrongfully detained, set up by the FSB the way he was, or that he should still be in Russia four years later. This behaviour needs to stop, and we need everyone united to make sure these hostile foreign countries are not doing this to our citizens.

Daren Nair  41:43

Agreed, 100%. Elizabeth, we've been campaigning with you for years, and we will continue to do so until Paul is back home. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us today.

Elizabeth Whelan  41:53

Thank you so much, Daren, for... for having me on today, and for all that you're doing to help all of us get our loved ones home.

Daren Nair  42:05

Thank you for listening to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. Thank you for giving your time and for showing these families that they're not alone, that there are good, caring people out there, willing to stand by their side and help in any way possible. 

Richard Ratcliffe  42:20

Because if enough people care, then the right people will care enough. This is a basic rule of thumb that is true for all campaigning. 

Daren Nair  42:28

If you haven't already, please subscribe to our fortnightly newsletter called The Hostage Briefing. It's the best way to keep up to date with the cases we're working on as well as new episodes. You can subscribe to this newsletter using the link in the description of this podcast episode that you're currently listening to. Thanks again and take care.