Free Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich, Americans held in Russia | Pod Hostage Diplomacy

Free Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich, Americans held in Russia

SPEAKERS

Daren Nair, Elizabeth Whelan

Daren Nair  00:05

Welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. We work to free hostages and the unjustly detained around the world. Together with their families, we share their stories and let you know how you can help bring them home.

Elizabeth Whelan  00:18

Now when it comes to using the family to get... for Russia to get what they want, if that's the case, they've picked the wrong family, because I'm not going to carry water for the Russian authorities.

Daren Nair  00:28

These are some of the most courageous and resilient people among us.

Mariam Claren  00:32

I never thought that my mother, Nahid Taghavi, will ever have a link to negotiations in Vienna about the JCPOA. That's so crazy.

Daren Nair  00:43

People who have never given up hope.

Paula Reed  00:46

Trevor told his girlfriend to tell me to... to be strong. So, I'm trying to be strong for Trevor. 

Joey Reed  00:50

You know, if Trevor can cope with what he's dealing with...

Paula Reed  00:53

Exactly.

Joey Reed  00:53

We can sure cope with the stress.

Daren Nair  00:55

People who will never stop working to reunite their families. 

Joey Reed  01:00

We'd like to meet with the President. We believe that, you know, he has... he's surrounded by lots of experienced and educated advisors. But I don't believe that any of them have ever had a child taken hostage by a foreign country, especially not a superpower like Russia.

Daren Nair  01:15

And we'll be right there by their side until their loved one comes back home.

Richard Ratcliffe  01:20

Because if enough people care, then the right people will care enough.

Daren Nair  01:24

I'm Daren Nair, and I've been campaigning with many of these families for years. When I first started campaigning with these families, I noticed they struggled to get the media attention they needed. So, I decided to create this podcast, which is a safe space for the families to speak as long as they need to about their loved ones, and what needs to be done to bring them home. 

Mariam Claren  01:45

Nobody can prepare you for what our family is going through. Even if someone had told me one year before, "in one year, this is going to happen. Prepare yourself." That's impossible. 

Daren Nair  01:59

Thank you for listening, and welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. Welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. In December 2018, American citizen and Marine veteran, Paul Whelan, was arrested in Russia by the FSB, which is the successor agency of the Soviet-era KGB. Paul was in the country to attend a friend's wedding. He was arrested on false charges, put through a sham trial and sentenced to 16 years hard labour in a Russian penal colony. In August 2019, another American citizen and Marine veteran, Trevor Reed, was also arrested in Russia by the FSB. He was in the country to visit his longtime girlfriend and learn Russian for his International Studies courses at the University of North Texas. Trevor, too, was arrested on false charges, put through a sham trial and sentenced to nine years in prison in a Russian labour camp. In February 2022, shortly before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Brittney Griner, an American WNBA athlete and Team USA Olympic gold medalist, was detained in Russia at Sheremetyevo Airport outside of Moscow, after customs officials alleged they found vape cartridges that contain oil derived from cannabis in her luggage. She had 0.7 grammes of cannabis oil in her luggage. Now, for those who are unaware of how much oil this is, it is roughly the size of a raisin. Brittney's legal team said she used this for medicinal purposes and accidentally included it in her luggage as she was rushing to pack. Brittney owned up to having this oil in her luggage. She was returning to Russia to play for a Russian basketball club, where she has competed in the WNBA offseason since 2014. Brittney was put through a sham trial and eventually charged with international drug smuggling, and sentenced to nine-and-a-half years of hard labour in a penal colony, a sentence longer than others convicted of similar crimes in Russia. The Russians apparently made it clear to the US that they would hold Brittney Griner until they got Russian arms dealer, Viktor Bout, who was jailed in the US, freed. Now, if you look at all three of these cases, you will notice a pattern, a pattern of state-sponsored hostage-taking, also known as hostage diplomacy. Russia detained these three Americans to use them as bargaining chips to extract concessions from the United States. All three of these Americans were classified as wrongfully detained by the United States government. On 27 April 2022, Trevor Reed was freed in a prisoner swap between the United States and Russia. Trevor was released in exchange for Konstantin Yaroshenko, a Russian drug smuggler, who was convicted and halfway through a 20-year prison sentence in the US. On 8 December 2022, Brittney Griner was freed in a prisoner swap between the US and Russia for Russian arms dealer, Viktor Bout, who had already served 12 years in prison in the US, and was due to be released in 2029. Paul Whelan was left behind both times, and remains in a Russian labour camp to this day. We've interviewed Paul Whelan's sister, Elizabeth Whelan, five times on this podcast, more times than anyone else. We tell all the families that we campaign for that we'll be right by their side until their loved ones come back home, and we mean it. We will keep you up to date on their cases through sitrep pods and breaking news pods. Today, we speak to Elizabeth Whelan once again. Elizabeth, we're sorry that you, Paul and your family are still going through this nightmare. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us today.

Elizabeth Whelan  05:43

Thank you so much, Daren. I really appreciate you having me on again.

Daren Nair  05:47

Now, as I always say, hostage diplomacy doesn't happen to everyone, but it can happen to anyone. Because this doesn't happen to everyone, not enough people pay attention. Don't get me wrong. I understand there are many bad things going on in the world today, and nobody has the capacity to pay attention to everything. This applies to all of us. Elizabeth, for our listeners who don't know what happened to your brother, can you please give them an overview?

Elizabeth Whelan  06:13

Absolutely. In 2018, in December, Paul went to Moscow to help an American friend who was marrying a Russian woman with the wedding and to help with escorting US guests around Moscow. He was set up by the FSB, which is the modern version of the KGB, and given a USB drive that they said had state secrets on it. This was by somebody he had met in Russia before and thought was a friend. Paul was arrested on charges of espionage, which are patently false. And he was held in Lefortovo prison in Moscow for 19 months, and then now has, ever since then, for the rest of the four years and four months, has been at a prison camp in IK... called IK17 in Mordovia, which is a forced labour camp. At about the 16 month mark, when he was in Lefortovo, he was subjected to a sham trial and given a 16 year sentence. So, that is how we got to basically where we are, Paul being imprisoned wrongfully, called wrongfully detained by the US government for now about four years and four months. And, as you said, he has had to watch two other Americans who were arrested after he was and brought home before he has been, and now he is concerned about being left for a third time.

Daren Nair  07:40

I'm sorry to hear that. Elizabeth, we last spoke in December last year, shortly after Brittney Griner was released in a prisoner swap and, as you said, Paul was left behind for the second time. Since then, several things have happened, some good, some bad. So, your brother, Paul, passed the four-year anniversary of his wrongful imprisonment in Russia in December, and he turned 53-years old a few months ago. American citizen and navy veteran, Taylor Dudley, held in Russia was released. He was held in Russia for nine months. On 31st March this year, Wall Street Journal reporter and US citizen, Evan Gershkovich, was detained in Russia. He has been charged with espionage, which is what Paul was charged with as well. He's also being held in the same prison Paul was held in shortly after his arrest. The US government has designated Evan as wrongfully detained and has called for his immediate release. Can you tell us more about these events as well as anything else that has happened since we last spoke?

Elizabeth Whelan  08:41

Well, let's see. Where do I start? Yes, you know, Brittney came home without Paul. That was a situation where the Russians really forced a choice, not between Paul and Brittney, which a lot of people think, but forced a situation whereby the US government had to choose to bring somebody home or bring no one home. And so, they brought home Brittney Griner, and our family, you know, was fully in support of seeing her come home. Nobody should have to... to stay in Russia. But it was very difficult on us to know that Paul was still there. As you said, then after that, it was the four year mark for the time he has been held, and then his 53rd birthday, which is... I can't even imagine what that is like to pass birthday after birthday in... in a prison. I can't really speak to... to Taylor Dudley's... either arrest or release. That was not a... a case that was sort of classified as a wrongful detention. But I think everyone was glad to see him come out of Russia. So, I believe that was sort of more of a humanitarian release situation. And and... now we have this arrest of Evan and, like you said, on exactly the same types of charges, espionage, and it was the FSB doing the arresting. He's being held in Lefortovo, and he is likely to be put through a sham trial as well. I don't have more detail about the case than that... than... than what we have been seeing in the media.

Daren Nair  10:18

Thank you for that. So, Elizabeth, our first episode with you was in September 2021. When people like Paul or Evan are wrongfully imprisoned by a country like Russia, information about them will need to be shared with many entities within the US government, which requires a privacy waiver to be signed. Another thing is, when Paul and Evan are being detained, someone else will need to pay their bills and handle their affairs. This requires this person to be granted power of attorney. Can you please tell us more about this, and where people can go to get some help with this if they need it?

Elizabeth Whelan  10:55

Well, that's a really good question, because there are a number of things that the Russian authorities have started doing with Americans, and one is denying them consular access. And that means that sometimes they will let other people in to see the prisoners, such as prison monitors or even lawyers, but they will not allow... allow the actual US government officials to come and visit the people who they've imprisoned sometime. So, for Paul, it was six days, I think for Trevor, it was twelve, and for Brittney, it was a month or something like that. So, this is something they've started to, you know, to use to their effect, because the Privacy Act is basically a law that says the US government isn't going to share information about you unless you sign a waiver, you know, saying who you'd like to have that information shared with. And that means, unfortunately, that until they get that signed document, that they can't share information with Congress. They can't share information, you know, beyond your family, sometimes certain family members may not be able to have information. So, it really does tie the... the hands of the US government in terms of getting action organised to help out somebody who may possibly be wrongfully detained. Of course, the Russian authorities know that. And then, as you mentioned, the Privacy... the power of attorney, this is another piece of of paper. It took us, I think, six months to get a power of attorney signed for Paul, so that one of our family members could manage his finances and pay bills and deal with taxes and all of those things. It is very difficult to get both of these pieces of paper signed in prison, because the people who have done the arresting have to let the consular officials have access, have to allow a piece of paper to be passed back and forth and signed. And sometimes, they have all sorts of rules and regulations they make up at the last minute to make that not possible. In the meantime, and this has certainly happened before, detainees find that their... their finances fall apart, their bills are paid late. You know, a family member doesn't have access to the bank account to pay things for them. And so, they come home from these ordeals with devastated finances, taxes in arrears, credit card charges, all sorts of things that happen. And so, you know, getting those pieces of paperwork signed, those are important, and the Russians know that and will do what they can to prevent that from happening.

Daren Nair  13:27

As I mentioned earlier, the US State Department has designated both Paul and Evan as wrongfully detained. For those of you unaware of how the US government works to free American citizens held hostage or wrongfully imprisoned abroad, let me give you some background and some details on the process. So, there are two types of hostage-takers, non-state actors and state actors. Non-state actors consist of terrorist groups and criminal organisations like ISIS, Al Qaeda, Al Shabaab, FARC rebels, and Somali pirates. State actors are countries like Iran, Russia, Venezuela, China, Syria, North Korea, and more. Ten years ago, the majority of Americans held captive abroad were held by non-state actors in places like Syria, Yemen and Somalia. Today, the majority of Americans held hostage abroad are held by state actors like Iran, Venezuela, Russia, China and Syria. This is based on the publicly known cases. Before 2014, it was totally up to the President of the United States to decide whether or not help was given to American hostages. After the hostage-taking and brutal murder of Americans in Syria in 2014 including freelance journalist, James Foley, families of these hostages were appalled at the way the US government handled the situation and felt they were never a priority. President Obama then ordered a review of the US hostage policy. This National Counter Terrorism Center hostage review culminated In Presidential Policy Directive 30, also known as PPD 30, which was focused on Americans held hostage by non-state actors, but not really on Americans held hostage by state actors. This PPD 30 led to the creation of the following entities within the US governmen: the Hostage Recovery Fusion Cell, which is a multi-agency team based at FBI Headquarters, the Office of the US Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs, which is responsible for coordinating State Department's family, Congressional and diplomatic engagements, the Hostage Response Group, which provides updates to the National Security Council. These entities, when put together, combined with third parties that work with them, are what we call the hostage enterprise. Now, as I mentioned earlier, PPD 30 only really covered Americans held hostage by non-state actors, and not Americans taken hostage by countries. In March 2007, American citizen, Robert Levinson, who worked for the FBI and CIA, went missing on the Iranian island of Kish. He was presumed dead a few years ago, and his family was notified that he most likely died in captivity. The Levinson family didn't get the support they needed from the US government. So, they worked with other organisations to lobby Congress to create the Robert Levinson Hostage Recovery and Hostage-taking Accountability Act, which enshrined PPD 30 into law and included a list of criteria to determine whether or not an American imprisoned abroad by a state is wrongfully detained. If an American meets this criteria, and is designated as wrongfully detained, the US government then works to secure their release. This Levinson Act covers US citizens and lawful permanent residents, and also includes tools for the government to use to punish the hostage-takers. Now, here's the list of criteria within Section 2, Subsection A of the Levinson Act, which is used to determine whether or not an American held by another country is wrongfully detained. Number one, United States officials receive or possess credible information indicating innocence of the detained individual. Number two, the individual is being detained solely or substantially because he or she is a United States National. Number three, the individual is being detained solely or substantially to influence the United States government policy or to secure economic or political concessions from the United States government. Number four, the detention appears to be because the individual sought to obtain, exercise, defend or promote freedom of the press, freedom of religion, or the right to peacefully assemble. Number five, the individual is being detained in violation of the laws of the detaining country. Number six, independent non-governmental organisations or journalists have raised legitimate questions about the innocence of the detained individual. Number seven, the United States Mission in the country where the individual has been detained, has received credible reports that a detention is a pretext for an illegitimate purpose. Number eight, the individual is detained in a country where the Department of State has determined in its annual Human Rights Report that the judicial system is not independent or impartial, is susceptible to corruption or is incapable of rendering just verdicts. Number nine, the individual has been detained in inhumane conditions. Number 10, due process of law has been sufficiently impaired so as to render the detention arbitrary. And finally, number 11. United States diplomatic engagement is likely necessary to secure the release of the detained individual. Now, that was some background on how the US hostage enterprise was created, and what organisations and laws are currently in place. What comes next is even more important, and that is implementation. The Levinson Act requires the Secretary of State to make the determination of who is wrongfully detained, based on the criteria I just read out. The Secretary gets input from different stakeholders, including the Office of the US Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs, the State Department Regional Office, lawyers at the State Department as well as other groups, and they then try to build a consensus on whether or not an American is wrongfully detained. This information then goes up to the Secretary, who then makes this hard decision or delegates this responsibility to the Deputy Secretary of State. If a person held abroad is designated as wrongfully detained, their case will transfer from Consular Affairs to the Office of the US Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs, who will then start working to secure their release. Elizabeth, Evan Gershkovich was rightly designated as wrongfully detained by the US State Department within ten days of being arrested. How long did the US government take to designate your brother, Paul, as wrongfully detained?

Elizabeth Whelan  20:09

It was at least 13 months. But we also... we sort of bridged the implementation or the... the approval of the Robert Levinson Act. Paul was, as I mentioned, arrested in December of 2018, and I think it was March of 2019, that the Robert Levinson Act was introduced. So, we ended up lobbying for it. People kept saying to us, "oh, no, Paul's going to be home long before you need the Levinson Act." But that was not the case. And so, I think it was the Fall of 2020 when it was... when the Levinson Act was finally passed. And I have been really pleased to see that, you know, as quickly as possible, we're moving from the fact that an American has been arrested on what I call a red flag sort of set of charges like espionage, that that determination of wrongful detention happens very quickly. Now, we have seen both with Brittney Griner's case and with Evan's that that determination happened quite fast. I'm hoping that when somebody who is arrested, who doesn't have quite the public exposure of both of these two individuals, that we'll see wrongful detention determinations, moving just that quickly. I am not sure, right now, that we are implementing that as smoothly as I hope to see it implemented in the future.

Daren Nair  21:36

Elizabeth, you, Paul and your family have been going through this trauma for over four years now. I've spoken to many family members with loved ones held hostage or wrongfully detained abroad. They are going through one of the worst periods of their lives. They've had to put their own lives on hold. Every morning, when they wake up, they think about what they need to do today to free their loved one. Every night when they go to bed, they ask themselves did they do enough to free their loved one. They stopped socialising with friends. They feel guilty every time they rest. They feel guilty when they eat, because they think to themselves, "is my loved one eating or starving right now?" How have you and family been able to cope with this trauma for so long?

Elizabeth Whelan  22:16

Well, we... we really haven't had a choice, have we? I mean, you just, as long as it goes on, you have to figure out a way to survive. But I have to say it's devastating. And it's been devastating to all of us on different levels. I mean, we're a relatively strong family. And you know, we feel pretty affectionate towards each other. But now you have to interact with... with each other almost as a strategic business team. And that brings up different types of relationships. And you have to find a way to sort of work with each other for as long as it takes. And it's very... it's exhausting. My parents are in their mid-80s. No one's getting any younger. I just turned 60 this last year, and I can feel the amount of energy I have for dealing with the drama and the roller coaster of this. You know, it... I'm not getting more energy as the years go by. And then I think there's always this myth that we're all... all struggling with. And that is that, of course a family's going to dig in and do whatever it takes, you know, spend whatever they have. And basically, you do. You end up depleting... people deplete their retirement accounts, their savings accounts. I've been to DC 23 times. And actually, because the Senate wanted to pass a... a piece of legislation that's been introduced, it hasn't gone to vote yet, specifically around the idea of helping families be paid to, you know, have some... have some resources to go down to DC and get these classified briefings or the information that we need. They... and also to pay for support for detainees after they come home - post-isolation support. There is a bill for both of those resources going through... through the Senate at the moment. And in order to help support that, I submitted a spreadsheet, basically, to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations and saying, basically, this is how much it's cost. And I came up with a figure, and this is a very ballpark figure of what I've spent and lost wages as well over that time of about $97,000. So, that's a huge amount of money for somebody who is, you know, like me, independently employed. And you don't want to put a spotlight on that, because this isn't about me and my suffering. This is about Paul and his suffering. But I have started to talk about it a little bit more publicly, because it's an indicator of what goes on with family members. You know, so not just my family and my brother's have all experienced their own, you know, every time you go on media sometimes, some of these media outlets want you to rent a studio. Sometimes, you're losing work that you can't get back or spending your vacation or sick time in order to make appearances. So, you know, here are all these positive things that are happening, right, you get the meetings with people in DC, you get to be on television talking about your loved one. And there's this cost. And as the years go by, and you have to keep doing it, it is very difficult to... to regain those resources to be able to continue to have them to use into the future. So, the family suffers, personally, emotionally. They suffer from a resource point of view. And it becomes even more... the frustration with not having your loved one home just builds over that time. And so, I was very keen to help support what the Senate is trying to do, which is to come up with some funding, so at least twice a year, members of... of a detainees family can have some help getting to DC to have those personal, in-person conversations with officials, because you do get more information in person than you do over the phone or over a Zoom call. It's really important. But I think... I've heard some terrible stories of people selling their homes, selling their cars, losing their jobs, having to take different jobs, to have the time and resources to be able to advocate for their loved one. And I would hope to see, as we move forward with the Robert Levinson Act, that an understanding of what it actually takes for a family to advocate. And that doesn't even include what you do to support the loved one himself, the detainee. So, we have a separate GoFundMe, just to help Paul, just to get food and supplies to him. We've used it for translating documents and other things. So, there's this constant need for resources, as the detention continues on.

Daren Nair  25:27

Again, Elizabeth, I'm sorry to hear that. I've interviewed many families in the same situation as yours. And the one silver lining, I guess, there is, is that almost all these families realise that this experience brings... brings them closer together, and they realise how much... how important they are to each other. And that brings them a lot closer. So, I guess that's the one positive of this experience. I know some family members who try to keep their loved one spirits up by spreading the good news to keep giving them hope. So, let's say they speak to their loved one three days a week, and three good things happen today. They don't tell their loved one everything all at once during that first call. They spread out the news throughout the three calls, so they can give some good news on each call. How do you and your family keep Paul's spirits up when you speak to him?

Elizabeth Whelan  27:49

Well, it's... it's my parents who are having the conversations with Paul. The Russians will not allow him to call any number that he wants to. But he can call their landline, he can call the US Embassy, and he has been able to make some other calls over time. But most of the conversations the... you know, the conversations to get him through the week are the ones he has with my parents. And although they often have, you know, small bits of information to tell him, often they just let him talk, because he has very few people he can speak to in English during the course of his day. So, that 10 or 15 minutes might be the only time he gets to use English all day long. He has no other outlet. He's in Mordovia, he's eight hours away... eight-hour drive away from Moscow. The embassies have come to see him, which is really marvellous, but that only happens every few months. So, those calls to my folks are his way of expressing his frustration, his, you know, something funny happened, or something interesting that happened, and to talk about the conditions in the prison camp. I don't know at this point, four years and four months of it, whether anyone's trying to buoy Paul's hope, in any sort of specific way. We tell him when something good has happened. We read him articles, you know, that cover his situation in the... in the paper. But when he heard, for example, about Evan's arrest, you know, he was... he was devastated at the thought of another American being arrested and that he might be left for a third time. And so his ability to be able to express that to us. I mean, we can't bundle that in any kind of hopeful message and say, "well, you know, it won't happen a third time." How do we know it won't happen a third time? You know, there... You want to be optimistic, but you have to be realistic at the same time.

Daren Nair  29:44

I understand. Elizabeth, you and your family have been campaigning to free Paul for over four years now. Unlike Evan, you don't have the Wall Street Journal campaigning on your behalf. How have you approached public campaigning, and what advice would you give those campaigning to free Evan?

Elizabeth Whelan  30:03

Oh, that's such a good question. You know, I want to start this part of the conversation off by saying we have no bad feelings against Trevor, or Brittney, or Evan or any of the resources any of them have, or have been able to use. Each family is going to use every tool they have at their disposal to raise awareness around their loved one and to press the US government to get someone home. But it has been pretty crazy to look at the amount of attention that Evan was able to get from, not just the Wall Street Journal, from other journalists and media sources right away, deservedly so. But it made us think back to those early weeks and months when Paul was arrested, and we were busy fighting bad faith stories about, you know... was he a spy? And why was he there, and victim blaming and everything else, and anything but a positive story, or a story that brought attention to the fact that Paul was wrongfully detained and should be out of there. So, it's... it's quite a change to see that sort of... that effort. And I think when it comes to, you know, giving advice to Evan's family about, you know, how to advocate publicly there... they already have that support, the support that most families want. And I think the difficulty comes and I... I don't... I hope they don't find this out, because I hope there's a way to get Evan and Paul home much sooner than this. But it can be difficult. And I think Brittney Griner's team found this as well, even though she had a lot of celebrity, that if something dramatic is not happening, it is difficult to keep your loved one in the news. You know, if they're not sick, at a hearing, at a trial or being sentenced, we found that once Paul, sort of, was disappeared off to IK17, that it became really hard to, you know, to kind of keep him back in the news. Of course, over time, more and more events have been happening. Paul himself has been able to reach out to media a few times. We continue to do all we can, but it is important to remind both publicly and the US government on a continual basis that your loved one is still wrongfully detained, and not to let the bright shiny objects of other news or other crises come along to... to detract.

Daren Nair  32:33

Now, the Russian authorities are the culprits here. Their practice of hostage diplomacy may result in short term gains, but in the long term, their country will suffer. If foreign nationals continue to be taken hostage in Russia, businesses will stop sending their foreign employees to work in Russia. Academic institutions won't be able to attract foreign researchers and students. And the same goes for the medical and pharmaceutical industry in Russia. I appreciate Russia is already and rightly heavily sanctioned due to their unjust invasion of Ukraine, but if they continue their hostage diplomacy, things will get worse for their economy. Elizabeth, in your opinion, what should the Russian authorities do?

Elizabeth Whelan  33:19

Well, they should free Paul and Evan immediately. That's what they should be doing. And... and I continue to hold the view that because they are continuing with this hostage diplomacy, that it is just showing how extremely weak and chaotic things must be at the Kremlin. This is not the activity of a strong country that knows how to have a civilised conversation with another country. You know, this is... this is terrorism. This is, you know, it's gangster moves. It's not something that... that a mature nation does. And it certainly doesn't make them look very good on... on the world stage. I think that when it comes to, you know, us trying to... to deter the Russians from... from doing this sort of activity, sanctions and that sort of thing, you know, that we have been putting in place are very useful. I imagine that there are Russians who realised themselves that what their authorities are doing is very wrong. And... but the internal system...  situation is such that they can't speak out about this. I can't imagine that there's any way at this point to put any public pressure from Russia on the Russian authorities to make them release Paul and Evan. And I certainly know from a media point in the west, so much media has been cut out, independent... independent media sources within Russia have been kicked out. You know, they've been restricted from receiving information that... that we no longer try to address the Russian authorities through the media and you know, sort of demanding them to do the right thing. But really, there is only one right thing to do, and that is to stop hostage diplomacy and to let our people go.

Daren Nair  35:08

So, I've been campaigning to free hostages and the unjustly detained around the world for over seven years now. One of the most important things I've learned about hostage diplomacy is whether you give up a concession to free your citizen held hostage by another country, or you do nothing at all and leave them there, the hostage-taking state will continue to take more of your citizens hostage. Let me give you some Russia-specific examples. Last year, the US freed two Americans held in Russia in a prisoner swap, Trevor Reed and Brittney Griner. What the Russians did, a few months later, was wrongfully imprison another American Evan Gershkovich. So, you can argue here that giving up concessions led to more Americans being taken hostage. This may be true. But then here's another example. In December 2018, the Russians detained Paul Whelan. The US government did not give up any concessions and weren't able to free him. So, if giving up concessions incentivises more hostage-taking, then the opposite should also be true. But that's not what happened. In August 2019, the Russians took another American hostage, Trevor Reed. The US government, again, didn't give up any concessions to free Paul or Trevor. So, that should mean Russia had no reason to take any more hostages. But they did. In February 2022, they took Brittney Griner. So, my point here is this. Whether you give up a concession to free your citizen held hostage by another country, or you do nothing at all and leave them there, the hostage-taking state will continue to take more of your citizens hostage. The only way to stop hostage diplomacy is to punish the individuals responsible within the hostage-taking state and raise awareness of this risk, so your citizens stop going to these countries. I also appreciate the predicament the US government is currently in. If they punish the Russians for their hostage diplomacy right now, Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich will be made to suffer even more. Also, the US already had a travel advisory in place for Russia, which has a Level 4 Do Not Travel to Russia rating. This didn't stop Americans like Brittney Griner from going to Russia. There are some possible solutions here. When it comes to the Americans currently detained in these countries, the US government should use all the leverage it has to bring these Americans home first, and then punish the hostage-takers before they take any more hostages. The second solution: every time an American buys a ticket to a country like Russia, that ticket purchasing process should have the US travel advisory for that country pop up and require the customer to sign, saying they have read and understood the advisory as well as the risks of travelling to that country and also agree that, should they choose to go there anyway, the US government may not be able to secure their release if they are wrongfully detained. Elizabeth, in your opinion, what should the US government do?

Elizabeth Whelan  35:19

Well, first, Daren, thank you very much for laying out so very clearly how trading or doing whatever you need to to get your people home does not incentivise hostage-taking, but deterrence... not having any deterrence does. That was beautifully done. And I love, and I'm sure the State Department would as well, love your idea about having to click on something when you buy a ticket, because it's... it makes no sense to say after the fact, "well, I didn't think that would happen to me." You really do, and it is... I don't think most tourists really think about going and checking out what the State Department advisories say, although we have seen the one for Russia over the years just get, you know, more and more in your face. Right now, it's sort of like, neon lights, they... "do not go to Russia, if you're there leave." I mean, they can't state it any more clearly than they are. You know, I don't know, when it comes to deterrence exactly what to do either for exactly the same problem that you said, you know, if you do it at one point, maybe it hurts the people who are there. How do you go about actually forcing the situation? But I think part of deterrent involves, well, two levels, first it involves many countries working together to impose whatever punishments they need to... to stop, because it's not just Americans who are being wrongfully detained. You know, people from other countries are also held wrongfully in Russia and... and elsewhere. I think the other part though, is that we tend to look at the US government as... as they are the only key to, you know, to deterrence and to getting people out. And that allows large corporations and businesses to act without any restrictions, really, on their activities. So, a country can continue... can do the worst thing... can arrest the citizens of that country, but businesses can still operate, you know, they can still provide money to the aggressive country, they can... they can still have relations of certain types. It's almost as if businesses allowed this avenue into the country, which the US government may be trying to restrict from a diplomatic point of view. And that undermines efforts to get Americans home. And I would like to see the business community, the large corporations, for example, who have done business in Russia, many of whom have left because of the war on Ukraine, but not all, and some have actually gone back. This has got to stop. We need a unified effort. This has to be not just a whole of government approach to deterrence, but a whole of country and a whole of world approach, a global response to hostage-taking.

Daren Nair  41:07

I absolutely agree. Now, one country that is notorious for hostage diplomacy is Iran. They are currently holding hostage seven French nationals, including a French-Irish dual national, two Germans, two Swedes, three Austrians, one Spanish citizen, and one Belgian citizen. And these are just the publicly known cases. Members of the European Union have started calling on the EU leadership to come up with an EU-wide approach to tackle Iran's hostage diplomacy. I spoke to a couple people on this, including former US ambassador, Peter Romero, and Jose Pereira, an American from Texas, who was wrongfully imprisoned in Venezuela for almost five years, and they recommend that we come up with a United Nations level approach to tackle hostage diplomacy. US Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken, has apparently suggested that we come up with something similar to the convention banning the use of chemical and biological weapons in war to tackle hostage diplomacy, especially from a deterrence perspective. The Canadian-led declaration against arbitrary detention in state-to-state relations could be a good starting point here, as it names the problem and has 67 signatories, including the US and UK. Elizabeth, what are your thoughts on what the international community should do?

Elizabeth Whelan  42:30

Well, I agree completely, that we need something that is UN level. I think what is... what frustrates families often is to see, you know, we've got this situation, for example, with Russia. There's my brother, sitting in prison wrongfully detained. Now we have Evan, likewise. And yet we're watching, you know, Putin jet around the world to this, well maybe not anymore, he's sitting at a very long table. But in the past, he was... he was able to go to, you know, G20 meeting. Now we've got representatives from Russia coming to... to the UN at the end of the month. I think it's very frustrating to see that, even though we have these huge problems, that there isn't a way to sort of attack the whole issue of wrongful detention, when we are allowing this kind of latitude of movement and engagement. And so, I think that to be able to enact something at those same levels, whether it's at the UN or whatever it happens to be, and where we can target the country, and not only that, but the people who are there to represent that country until we get our people back. The point is, we need our folks back. All of these countries want their citizens returned, and we need hostage diplomacy to stop. It's that simple. That means, what, letting go several dozen people around the world. It's probably more than that, but and then not doing it again. It's quite simple. The solution is quite simple. It's all on the aggressive... aggressor country, though, to make that happen.

Daren Nair  44:12

So, news outlets have a lot of power. They have the power to shine a light on an issue, making it visible to the whole world. They have the power to pressure institutions and governments to take immediate action. And the case of Evan Gershkovich is a great example. He was designated as wrongfully detained by the US Secretary of State within ten days of being detained. It took Paul Whelan thirteen months to get the same designation, even though Paul and Evan's charges were similar. The key difference here was the global and constant media coverage of Evan's case. With great power comes great responsibility. Another point to note here is this. Countries that practice hostage diplomacy are notorious for charging innocent people with ridiculous false charges. They then use their state-affiliated media to spread these false allegations and smear this innocent person's reputation. International news outlets must understand what the hostage-taking state is doing, and not assist these countries in ruining an innocent person's reputation by repeating the hostage-taking state's false accusations. Elizabeth, what do you think journalists and news outlets should do?

Elizabeth Whelan  45:24

Well, those are extremely good points. We've been... we've been fortunate that over the years now, we've had a lot of interaction with media outlets, with journalists, with reporters on television, who have started to really understand what wrongful detention is all about. But upfront, it was very difficult because news outlets wanted the sensational story and they wanted... they... they forgot about the American, the innocent victim of this situation. And they wanted to gin up the story to make it as exciting as possible to get clicks. That's not responsible journalism. And we have a certain amount of frustration, right now, with some of the coverage we see when journalists are speaking about Evan, as if he was the first person arrested on espionage charges in Russia. And if lucky, we... Paul gets, you know, a sentence mentioned. We would like to see balanced reporting about what is going on that includes Paul, because the situations that Paul and Evan are going through are very similar. And people seem to have forgotten that Paul spent 19 months or so in Lefortovo and has a... has a deep understanding of what that whole experience was like. Our family can speak to some of the things that happened to Paul during his time there. It's... it's frustrating, because I do think that some of these journalists have only just woken up to the issue, because it's closer to them now. And so, they're able to report in a very overwhelming sort of way, the number of articles that have suddenly popped out. Now, of course, I... like I said before, I don't begrudge Evan this, because any of us would want it. Paul has been able to, over the years, as I said, get quite a good amount of media support, and we really appreciate that. But there are many other people who have been wrongfully detained, who have not been covered by the media in this way, and are... Why are they any less deserving? Why... why should their stories not be told just as much? I think we have to look at the role journalism plays in helping educate the general public to this awful practice of wrongful detention and helping get people on board to... to do something about it. And not just looking at the short term, "hey, is this going to get clicks? Is this going to get read? Is this going to be, you know, a story that I can file really quickly?" And so, we are looking for that type of journalism that is more helpful, that helps us... the country trying to get the people back and doesn't help the aggressor country like Russia by spreading more disinformation.

Daren Nair  48:10

Now, when it comes to members of the public, there are many things they can do, not just to free Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich, but to put an end to hostage diplomacy. As I mentioned earlier, there are two ways to put an end to hostage diplomacy: punish the hostage takers and raise awareness of hostage diplomacy worldwide, so everyone is aware of the risk and stops travelling to these countries. Before making plans to travel to another country, please first read the travel advisory for that country issued by your state department or foreign ministry. Even if you have visited a country many times before without any issues, it doesn't mean you're not going to have any problems next time you go. Both Paul Whelan and Brittney Griner have visited Russia several times before. I've spoken to former hostages who knew there was a risk of being wrongfully imprisoned but thought to themselves, "if I just mind my own business, stay away from anything political, I'll be fine." Unfortunately, they were wrong. Countries like Iran have arrested foreign and dual-nationals, who were in the country on holiday as tourists or just visiting family. When countries like the US or UK warn their citizens against travelling to another country like Iran, Russia, China, Venezuela, North Korea or Syria, the citizens most likely to push back are dual-nationals, individuals who were born in one of these countries. These individuals tend to have family members in these countries and travel there to visit them frequently. I understand their situation. In an ideal world where everyone obeys international law and norms, we should all be able to visit family or travel to another country without being taken hostage or wrongfully detained. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world and, frankly, never have. It is still a goal we should all be working towards. But it is not the reality we currently live in. American businessman, Kai Li, from New York, went to his country of birth, China, in September 2016 to visit family as they were organising a memorial to commemorate the one-year anniversary of his mother's passing. As soon as Kai landed at Pudong International Airport, he was arrested and has been wrongfully imprisoned in China since. There are similar cases with other Americans currently held in Iran, and Syria. Please pay attention to travel advisories. Governments don't make these decisions lightly when they tell you not to travel to other countries. Now, Elizabeth, what do you think the public can do to help?

Elizabeth Whelan  50:39

Well, I just want to... I want to underline and highlight everything you just said and how important it is. And perhaps this will help put it in perspective. Prisons overseas, like in Russia, are not like prisons in America. You will not have people able to come and access your loved one. You know, Paul... the food is so bad that we have to supplement his food. And right now, that's very difficult to do in Russia. The effect of the sanctions is such that fruit and vegetables and things like that are no longer available to Paul to buy independently at the prison. Communication is going to be cut off because of censorship. It can often take six months for a letter to go back and forth. If there isn't somebody who can read English wherever, at that particular prison, they won't let the letters go, either way. So, your loved one is cut off from communication. At Lefortovo, where Paul was held, we were not able to speak to him by phone for 19 months at all. And once again, letters were held up and consular access was restricted. So, it's not as if you can just call a lawyer or get out on bail, or house arrest or anything of the sort. If a country sees that blue passport and says, "hey, we're going to get something for this," they're going to hold you and they're going to make your life as difficult as possible to raise your value, so they can get something out of the US. It is the job of the US State Department and the National Security Council to start creating an environment whereby when a country sees that blue passport, they are actually concerned and afraid that they had better have arrested an American on the correct charges. Right now, that is not an environment that exists. And if you're going to Russia, for any reason whatsoever, you can see how difficult it is for even... even for the President, for the White House, for the National Security Council, Congress, the State Department, everyone who cares about Paul Whelan, they have still not been able to get him out. So, please take that to heart.

Daren Nair  52:55

Elizabeth, what's the best way for our listeners to keep up to date with the Free Paul Whelan campaign?

Elizabeth Whelan  53:01

Well, we do have a website, freepaulwhelan.com, and we post the updates there that we send out to media. We have, as I said, been pretty lucky that if you, you know, Google, Paul Whelan and News right now, you'll... you'll find quite a bit. But if you want to know how this has gone over the last four years and four months, there's an Updates page where we update every... every week or two with what's happening. And also there, you can find the address to write to Paul. Your letter might take a long time to get there. But he has been able to get a substantial amount of his mail. And we also pass on messages to him to help keep him... his spirits up.

Daren Nair  53:42

We're almost at the end of our interview. Is there anything else you'd like to mention?

Elizabeth Whelan  53:47

There's... there is one point that I think needs to be made very clearly to the United States government. You know, there's a lot of dissension that we have seen around Brittney Griner's release and now what will be done to get Evan home, concerning the idea that only public pressure is what is needed to... to be able to get action for your loved one. It's something the Whelan family is questioning. You know, Paul has not been able to come home. He has been left behind. Will the public pressure we now see for Evan also result in his release without Paul's? We are certainly hopeful that the US government realises that this point that the only correct solution is to bring both of them home. But I would like to urge the United States government to consider what they do and how they cause families to think that public pressure is what is needed. When phone calls are made to certain families and not to others, when attention is given to certain families and not to others, when names are spoken out loud of certain detainees and not others, this creates a great deal of stress and heartache and tension on the part of the families, who are all trying equally hard to get their loved ones home. Now, any of us who have received that attention, for example, I never got any phone calls from President Trump or President Biden until I made a fuss when President Biden called and... and Vice President Harris called Brittney Griner's family. And since then I've had quite a bit of communication with the White House. And I'm grateful for it. And I'm going to be happy every time I do have that kind of communication. But there are other families who haven't had anywhere near that kind of access. And I hope, as we see the Robert Levinson Act implemented over time, and as the various different entities working on hostage diplomacy get better at what they're doing, that we also see a great degree of equity about how the internal resources or the public... the public messaging around all of these families, how that is distributed. Every one of these detainees deserves the same amount of attention publicly, as well as the same amount of effort behind the scenes.

Daren Nair  56:17

I absolutely agree. Elizabeth, I've said this to you every time we've spoken, and I'll say it again. We will be right here campaigning by your side until your brother, Paul Whelan, is back home. We hope that Evan Gershkovich is also freed and reunited with his family, too. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us today.

Elizabeth Whelan  56:36

Thank you so much, Daren, for all you do for all of us.

Daren Nair  56:44

Thank you for listening to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. Thank you for giving your time and for showing these families that they're not alone, that there are good, caring people out there, willing to stand by their side and help in any way possible.

Richard Ratcliffe  56:59

Because if enough people care, then the right people will care enough. This is a basic rule of thumb that is true for all campaigning.

Daren Nair  57:07

If you haven't already, please subscribe to our fortnightly newsletter called The Hostage Briefing. It's the best way to keep up to date with the cases we're working on as well as new episodes. You can subscribe to this newsletter using the link in the description of this podcast episode that you're currently listening to. Thanks again and take care.