Jonathan Franks, Crisis management consultant for American hostage families | Pod Hostage Diplomacy

Jonathan Franks, Crisis management consultant for American hostage families | Pod Hostage Diplomacy  

SPEAKERS

Daren Nair, Jonathan Franks

[(00:00] Daren Nair: 

Welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. We work to free hostages and the unjustly detained around the world. Together with their families, we share their stories every week and let you know how you can help bring them home. I'm Daren Nair, and I've had the honour of campaigning with many of these families for years. These are some of the most courageous and resilient people among us. People who have never given up hope. People who will never stop working to reunite their families. And we will be right there by their side until their loved ones are back home. Thank you for joining us and now let's meet this week's guest.
 
 Jonathan Franks is a Crisis Management Consultant for families of Americans held hostage or wrongfully imprisoned overseas. Jonathan has worked with the family of former US Marine Andrew Tahmooressi held in Mexico, former US Marine Amir Hekmati held in Iran, as well as US Navy veteran Michael White, also held in Iran. All these men have now been freed and are back home in the United States.
 Jonathan is currently working with the family of former US Marine from Texas, Trevor Reed, who has been held in Russia for over two years. We had the honour of interviewing Trevor Reed's parents Joey and Paula Reed. Please do check out this episode on any podcast app or on our website podhostagediplomacy.com.
 
 Today we have the honour of speaking to Jonathan himself. Jonathan, thank you for all that you do for the families of Americans held hostage and wrongfully detained overseas. It's great to be able to speak to you today. Thank you for joining us.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Well, thanks for having me Daren, and thank you for providing this forum to families. It's been incredibly helpful.
 
 Daren Nair: 

You're welcome. It's an honour to help, and I'm sure you know this, too. Can you please walk us through the type of work you do for the families with loved ones held hostage or wrongfully detained [(2:00)]overseas?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Sure. I think a lot of the work that we do for families relates to messaging, message strategy, campaign strategy, and how to deal with the US bureaucracy. Because all these families come to the table with different skill sets and different expertise. And I've yet to meet one yet whose expertise lies in government affairs or media relations. And so I think it can be, it can be frustrating for families and sometimes just sort of need a third ear or a guide to help them through these processes, that if they had insurance or lots of money they would be paying somebody to help them with.
 
 Daren Nair: 

That's absolutely true. They're just going about their own personal lives, and not doing anything wrong. And then they get taken hostage or wrongfully detained. And suddenly, they have to figure all these things out.
 You were previously a staff member within the US House of Representatives. Can you please talk to us about your background specifically the path you chose that led you to the type of work that you do today?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

I actually started my work in the House when I was a junior in high school at a Page Program that unfortunately doesn't exist anymore, and then came back as an intern in the cloakroom, which is on the House floor, and then ended up going to be a, becoming a leadership staff or after taking a brief break to see if I wanted to do law. So, I made it back in I think mid-2006 and stayed a couple of years before I moved to California in search of some warmer weather.
 
 Daren Nair: 

So how do you go from that to what you do right now which is working with families of Americans held hostage overseas? And from what I read out at the beginning, they are all also veterans.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

There are. And we started this, [(4:00)] one of my clients is Montel Williams the talk show host and in, I can't remember what year it was, but well, we started hearing about a Marine that with PTSD that had made a wrong turn in San Diego and ended up in Mexico accidentally, with a gun in his car. It just went on, it was so obvious that he had, A. really honestly made a wrong turn and then B. his PTSD was profound at the time. And he's doing much better now, but we got involved in that case. And then as we were, Andrew had gotten out one day in October of that year and flying back to Florida with him, we all were sitting on the airplane saying, "Hey, there's a Marine in Iran, and let's see if we can help him, too." And so we joined up with the team that was already working on Amir's case and doing a great job, and eventually, Amir came home. And Michael White came into my life, courtesy of Amir and Michael, in no small part, thanks to COVID got out in June of 2020. And literally, in the weeks before Michael got out, I had started working with the Reed family who obviously, a very difficult situation, and one that is made more difficult by the ongoing crisis.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Absolutely. And I think in Michael's case, he had cancer, right? He was on chemotherapy.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Correct. Now, I will admit right after the fact that Michael was in a lot better health than any of us expected. I'm still baffled. I mean, keep in mind he still had a chemo port installed in his chest and the guy is, he's a walking miracle. It boggles [(6:00)] my mind how he walked out of that situation doing as well as he did.
 
 Daren Nair: 

How is he doing today?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

He's doing great. I hear from Michael all the time. Michael's a very bright guy, right? I think he has gotten knocked by people that have heard, the CliffsNotes version of his story that he just stopped and went to Iran and meet a woman. And Michael's a real smart guy and has a lot of interesting thoughts about a lot of things that he's got a mind that never stops. He's also got a fascinating story and one that was written contemporaneously while he was in prison. And the message to any book publishers out there, I've had the pleasure of reading it and it's really good work. So, I'm delighted to say he's doing pretty well right now.
 
 Daren Nair: 

That's great to hear. I'm happy for him and his mom, Joanna, right? That was her name?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Joanne. Yes. And she is back to being a grandma and caring for her horse. And all the things that she should get to do that at her stage of life and I'm incredibly proud of her. She has many skills, as somebody who...I mean, if nothing else, this is a woman who has five kids each of whom served and a hundred percent of her kids. Raising kids successfully like that isn't easy. Kids unfortunately don't come with a manual for what happens when they get kidnapped by a hostile foreign government. It was hard for her. We were, of course, because of his health, consistently worried that he was going to die. It turns out he proved much more resilient than we had feared. Thank God, [(8:00)] and is cancer-free today. I think Joanne is now able to sit back and say, "All right, all my kids are okay." That's really what's in it for me.
 
 Daren Nair: 

I'm happy for her and her family. But now, you're working with the family of Trevor Reed, I interviewed his parents, Joe and Paula. It was my second episode. Now, for our listeners who aren't aware of Trevor Reed's case, can you just give them an overview of Trevor?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Sure. Trevor is a, now 30-year-old Marine. Former Marine. He served honourably. In fact, we tell people, he was no ordinary marine. He was a Presidential Guard Marine, Yankee White Clearance. This is arguably the most elite unit in the Core. And after getting out, he was going to college like so many folks do after they get out of the service and, he met a girl and she happens to be Russian. She had spent some summers with them in Texas, he had spent some holidays in Russia with her family. He was going to spend the summer of that fateful summer, not even the whole summer, maybe two months in Russia. He was immersing himself in the Russian language which he thought would sort of be helpful for his degree program at the University of North Texas.
 
 And a couple of nights before he was supposed to come home, he and his girlfriend were at a private party. I mean, this is not out at a bar, this is in somebody's house, right? And they were toasting, Trevor's, not a big drinker. They're toasting vodkas, it is customary in Russia. Keep in mind that he had a Yankee white clearance. You don't get one of those unless you've lived your life, almost entirely in between the lines. So, he's not a big drinker, he had a couple of shots. He didn’t consume some reckless amount of alcohol. And as he was driving home, no, he wasn't driving, let me make that clear. [(10:00)] He was riding in the car and took ill, and needed to stop for a moment. Get some fresh air.
 And because they couldn't get him back in the car, physically, the women that were in the car, with him called for police assistance. It was a busy road. They were supposed to take him to a hospital, wait—a drunk tank effectively. Instead, they took him to a police station. They discovered he was a Marine, asked his girlfriend for a bribe. And keep in mind, he got out of the police car, not in handcuffs. He was housed for hours in the public lobby of the police station with no handcuffs. And then the FSB arrived and asked zero questions about the assault on a police officer that he would later be charged with. All the questions were about his service in the Marines. And quite frankly, the assault has been aptly pointed out by Ambassador Sullivan, just never took place, and obviously so. Proven with Russian traffic cameras, there were reporters and Embassy representatives in the room every day of the trial. Everybody knows those who were there, there's an objective record of the evidence, and he was proven not guilty. And when you read the verdict, it's a lengthy verdict from the judge. It does not correspond to the evidence that was entered at trial.
 
 They're complaining witness in this trial to illustrate how ridiculous this is, said that he might have imagined the entire affair, which involved the claim that Trevor grabbed his arm from the back seat, causing the police car to almost run off the road, putting officers in fear of their lives. He testified he might have imagined it. How do you find somebody guilty after your complaining witness says, "I might have imagined the whole thing." There are reports everywhere that Trevor, there was laughter heard in the courtroom. It was first reported by ABC News and confirmed by others. The judge laughed because the testimony of the officer changed their story so many times he sort, [(12:00)] the laughter equivalent of throwing up his hands and confusion. So there's no basis for Trevor Reed to have ever been found guilty, much less receive a prison sentence. And quite frankly, this was also sloppy. On the Russian part, they’ve charged him with a crime that cannot be committed if one is intoxicated. Trevor was suffering from alcohol poisoning. This is a crime that by Russian law itself, can't be committed by a drunk person. And that's just one of the hallmarks of a wrongful detention. The trial makes no sense. The trial and where the facts may be presented but are immediately disregarded. And as Ambassador Sullivan said multiple times, there wasn't a shred of justice in that room. The whole trial was an affront to the rule of law.
 
 Daren Nair: 

I absolutely agree with you. I think one of the key red flags here is that—why was someone who was brought to a police station because he was drunk? Ends up getting interrogated by the FSB? How would that be possible? Why would the FSB be interrogating Trevor just because he's drunk?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

The storyline is the FSB is often notified of the arrest of a foreigner including may very well be the procedure. But I think what's really telling is once the FSB got there, they weren't interrogating him about what he had allegedly done. They were interrogating him about his military service and it's not a crime in Russia to have served in the American Military. You have to disclose it on your visa application, which Trevor did. But it's not a crime, right? There's absolute, there's good evidence. There's lots of testimony that he was a perfectly law-abiding citizen. Well, not citizen, you get my point. A perfectly law-abiding tourist during his time in Russia. Whether he was legitimately interested in the Russian language, or a fan of Russian culture. One of the most cruel parts about this, the most asinine parts about this is, [(14:00)] they have effectively kidnapped and held hostage now for more than two years, as you said, a guy who was a good customer. A tourist, who came to their country, spent American dollars and went home. And who had fallen in love with a really impressive Russian woman, I mean she's spoken to me. His girlfriend is a very impressive young woman.
 
 I always had told people that Michael White's biggest crime and only crime was falling in love with Iran. And I'm not gonna say Trevor fell in love with Russia, but he was certainly extremely interested. And Russian history, Russian language, Russian culture, this has all fascinated him. For one thing, I think wrongful detention like this is bad for business. They're really bad for business. This is a relatively new thing for Russia. It almost seems to me that they've copied the Iranian business model and tried to improve on it. And when they had, they obviously got Paul Whelan first. That was the secret trial on secret evidence on wacky espionage charges, they realised that didn't go very well for them. So, when it came time to grab another American, they charged him with an ordinary crime. An assault on a police officer while drunk. And one that they knew would make it difficult for American media and even the US government to respond appropriately because there would be a legitimate in anyone's mind, "Okay? 28-year-old got drunk, allegedly, assaults a police officer," it fits a narrative. And the stereotype that is out there and that was part of the genius of it. Because then Trevor's faced with effectively proving a negative. Like that he didn't assault him. Fortunately, Russian traffic cameras told the story and show very clearly that [(16:00)] he was innocent.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Trevor is a good man. He cares for his family. He cares for his country, that's why he wanted to serve in the Marine Corps after 9/11 happened. His father, Joey Reed is also a Marine. He joined the Marine Corps, he did very well. He was an eagle scout before that, and he got selected to guard the President of the United States of America. He was one of the Marines guarding President Obama. He cared about his partner in Russia and therefore he cared about the country she was from, wanting to know more about her and her family. And that's the type of guy, Trevor is. And like you, we’ll be campaigning with his family until he comes back home. Now given your experience campaigning for American families held overseas and the fact that many of them are now back home. What are the key points of advice you would give an American family with a loved one held hostage or wrongly detained overseas? In general, and specifically when it comes to engaging with the media,
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

In general? I would tell any of these families that they can't help their loved one unless they keep themselves sane and healthy, right? And there's this temptation to let fear and dread overwhelm, right? And that doesn't do much to bring one's loved one home. So instead, I often tell families to go to the movies. Go do something normal for a minute and breathe, right? Because you could be in this for the long haul, you could be in this for years, right? I mean, we've got families [(18:00)] that are ten plus years now. And in terms it's a general rule, families need to remember that both politicians and the media need constant reminders that your loved one exists, right? It's not for lack of caring, it's part of what I call sort of an ADD universe that we live in where nobody could pay attention, nobody has much of an attention span anymore. And things just aren't absorbed so, it's really important to be persistent, right? And not just take an ignored email as a final answer and remember that as you're doing this. Nobody in the media, no politician is going to fault you for wanting to shed light on your loved one's flight.
 
 Daren Nair: 

These politicians are human beings as well. If they were in the same position, they would probably be doing the same thing. And the good ones, understand that part of being a politician part of having the power means people are going to criticise you if you're not doing well, or if you do the wrong thing and that comes with the job. And the good politicians understand that. So, I believe when Secretary Blinken was first sworn into office. A few days later, he had a call with the families of Americans held hostage and wrongfully detained overseas. And he openly said this, feel free to criticise us if we're doing something wrong. I think it was Paula Reed, Trevor's mom that mentioned that in a CNN interview. She said, "It was a refreshing change that this administration was willing, to be honest, and transparent.” And that's great progress, not perfection. [(20:00)] But at the end of the day results matter and we need to bring these Americans home. Now, for our listeners, Trevor Reed is not the only American and former US Marine held in Russia. Paul Whelan is an American citizen and former US Marine who has been wrongfully detained in Russia since 28, December 2018.
 
 His family has been campaigning tirelessly to free him and bring him back home to Michigan. There is currently no official playbook that offers guidance to American families, working to free their loved ones, unjustly held overseas. The Whelan family has taken the initiative and created a set of resources for other American families, based on their own experience. It includes advice on engaging with the media, and you can access these resources for free on their website, freepaulwhelan.com. And go to the section titled ‘Hostage Resources.’ Paul's family has been campaigning with Trevor's family. We've interviewed Paul's sister, Elizabeth Whelan on this podcast twice. So, check out our previous episodes to find out how you can help free Paul Whelan too.
 
 Now, while we're talking about advice for families, I want to bring up the Free Nazanin campaign. Our first ever episode was with Richard Ratcliffe, his wife, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe has been held hostage in Iran since 3rd April 2016. Richard said you cannot rely on the media to tell your story. You have to tell your story yourself. Richard started out by creating a petition on change.org, where he describes what happened to Nazanin. This petition was then shared with as many people as possible through email and social media. Every time someone signs that petition, they are given the option of receiving email updates on the Free Nazanin campaign. As of today, this petition has 3.7 million signatures. I say again 3.7 million signatures. That means every time Richard Ratcliffe sends out a petition update, [(22:00)] it potentially gets sent to 3.7 million people. Anyone who is familiar with campaigning, especially political campaigns will agree that one of the most powerful tools you can have is the ability to get your message out in full, directly to the public. So, what Richard has done here with the help of change.org, is create an amazing organising tool that is helping him lead a global campaign to free his wife held hostage in Iran. Jonathan,  as someone who engages with the media frequently. What are your thoughts on this approach?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

On Richard's approach? I completely agree with Richard and I think Richard has been incredibly effective. It's Nazanin's story that is just infuriating. And I think that social media matters these days, right? It matters to autocracies a lot and perhaps even more so than one might expect. And I think having a presence and using channels like that and I’d include Change in that because it is in theory, a social media platform but anything you can do, right? One of the first things I would do if I were one of my loved ones is start building an email list, you're going to need it. And there are free ways to do that, Google Forms. I mean, Microsoft has a competitor there. There are ways to do this, and you just, repetition matters, right? You share every couple of these. Get people signing up, and also don't be afraid to start fundraising right out of the gate, right? Because one thing that goes, is a common thread between all these families. These cases are financially devastating. And while there are plenty of us, [(24:00)] consultants here in America willing to help, yet to meet a foreign attorney, right? In one of these countries that does show trials and hostage-taking of Americans, that doesn't want to be paid cash. And why not start early? And again, the same kind of deal as you just mentioned with Change, Go Fund Me has the same function. In the sense that everybody that donates or interacts with the campaign, has the option to join the mailing list and receive updates. And I think it's a really powerful tool.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Absolutely agree with you. Thank you to Change.org for creating this, and thank you to Richard for showing other families how it is done. Obviously, there are many ways to go about this, Richard's approach is one example. Now you mentioned there that a campaign to free your loved one is a marathon, not a sprint. And financially it can be devastating, right? So, I know like the Free Nazanin campaign, for instance, has been fortunate to have many helpers: lawyers, consultants, and media consultants. I mean, Richard leads the campaign, he writes all the press releases. He's a phenomenal writer and a great campaigner. And they've got support from pro bono lawyers. It also helps that Nazanin works for Thomson Reuters Foundation even though she herself is not a journalist, she is a project manager. Now, going back to the key point here that campaigns like this can be financially devastating. On this specific point, what kind of support do you think the government should provide for families financially? Because I interviewed Veronica Vadell Weggeman, her father Tomeu Vadell, is an American citizen wrongfully imprisoned in Venezuela since November 2017. He was arrested with five of his colleagues and they all work for US oil company CITGO. The company stopped, within a few months of them being arrested, the company stopped paying their salaries. So, [(26:00)] where was the family going to get the money? Most of these men were the main providers for their families. So, I spoke to Veronica about the government possibly providing more support, including financial support to these families. What are your thoughts?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

I think it's good. Should the government provide this support? Absolutely, no question. Can the US government provide that support? Probably, not. And I have frequently thought about what it would take to create a non-profit to fill that void, but it's a huge void. Personally, I think that we have 50 or 60 families, right? So, if the US government spent a hundred thousand dollars on each family in the year, assume it’s 50 families, that’s five million dollars. We can afford that. But it's never been done, government doesn't do stuff it's never been done before very well. And I think the odds of the US government ever providing that kind of direct financial assistance to families is near zero.
 
 Daren Nair: 

It's unfortunate but true. That's why NGOs like Hostage US have been filling this void. They've been doing phenomenal work. I know they've helped families that needed to pay the mortgage, that needed to pay rent by finding volunteer benefactors. People who are willing to give them a loan to cover the mortgage, to cover the rent. So, at the moment, because the US government isn't providing this support, NGO, volunteers are having to do this. Now, the next point is on appearance. I know a family member of a hostage who told me that he was advised to always wear a suit and tie while giving media interviews. The reason for this was to appear as a professional. Now, whether we like it or not, many people are going to form an opinion of us by the way we look and by the [(28:00)] way we dress. Now, what advice would you give families when it comes to appearance on camera?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Be cognizant on it and there are good tips on what to wear, how to wear, and where to wear  online. One can Google I think a dress like you're going out to dinner and, it's not there's a fine line right between what I would call smart business attire and formal attire. Nobody needs to wear a tuxedo or an evening gown on TV, but I don't think it's the worst idea in the world to wear a suit.
 
 Daren Nair: 

I would do the same as well if I was in that position.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

I think. What's really important there is, I don't think it's much about whether you're wearing, what colour your suit is, what kind of dress you wear. I don't think it's as much about that. What matters these days is, are you compelling on television, right? So the biggest thing families ought to do is breathe. It's natural, you're going to TV, you're on camera, there are bright lights pointing at you and it's easy to get carried away, right? You start talking fast and you get off message. And that's often how train wrecks on television start so, to the extent you can just sort of take a deep breath and be you. And remember, it's a hard reality, you have to tell people all the time. Nobody cares, nobody is interested in like a bullet point recitation of facts, right? Nobody's interested in run-on answers. Short and sweet. You have a message you want to deliver, you stay on it and you don't move. You don't get sidetracked by awful [(30:00)] all questions. You don't get sidetracked if the host clearly doesn't know what they're talking about and asks questions that are wrong. Gently correct them and move on. And the more cool calm and collected you can be, the better you will be on TV and let some emotion go. Makes great television and will make them more likely to bring you back. And unfortunately, you have to look at TV appearances. These networks are not doing these for the goodness of their heart, they're doing it because they think the segment will rate. And tell them who your loved one is, tell them what they're missing back home. Whelans have been very effective putting out pictures of Paul's dog. I think that's been a very effective message that they've had. We like to tell people in Trevor's case, in kind of illustrate to                      folks that this is two years of his life he's never getting back. A very promising young life with plans for a future and somebody for whom all the pieces were literally coming together, to get to his American dream. And then it gets taken away one night by a couple of half-baked cops in Moscow and the pathway home has been longer and windier than we expected.
 
 Daren Nair: 

I agree with you. As you said at the beginning, an important thing, family members have to do is stay healthy and David Whelan mentions this in his guidance, Paul Whelan’s twin brother. He says that when you're going through this trauma, it's hard to keep up your energy levels. So, when you're doing back-to-back media interviews, you have to come across as energetic and convey your message in an authentic manner even though you are exhausted. Even though this is, it's so tiring to talk about this trauma, reliving it again and again. [(32:00)] So, it's important to keep your energy levels up and as you said, come across as authentic. You hear this in politics all the time. I like this guy because he seems like he's authentic, he says it as it is. The same thing with the families of hostages, be authentic. They're not expecting you to be a subject matter expert in geopolitics.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

That right there, stop. I'll stop you right there, that one is key, right? And I think there's this temptation when you get into one of these situations right to take on expertise that one doesn't have. And nobody's having you on to be an expert in American foreign policy. You're on to tell them about your loved one. They have people that can deal in the foreign policy analysis after you're done. I always tell folks, any time you're talking and you're not talking about who your loved one is and what is waiting for them back home, you're wasting an opportunity.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Absolutely, you also touched on the point of message discipline, having a single message. So, when you're running a public campaign to free your loved one held hostage overseas. It's pretty similar to being someone running a single-issue political campaign. This single issue being free your loved one. You're going to need support from as many people as possible. As many politicians as possible, and these people aren't all going to vote the same way. They're not all going to think the same way. Politics and the media today are very polarising, so you have to stay on message. You have to focus on that single issue. It can be tempting to comment on other issues, especially when you have many influential journalists and politicians following your campaign. Some of these politicians, journalists and activists may even ask you about other issues, but you have to stay on message. You have one message and one message alone, free [(34:00)] your loved one. Bring them home. Now, I think David Whelan mentions this as well, journalists might try to bait you to get a quote, to get a story. What would you recommend to families on this one?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

If you're not comfortable giving a comment, don't give a comment. And the minute you start talking to a journalist, you have to assume that what you say is going to end up in print. And if you're not sure what you want to say, don't engage and they'll wait. And if they don't wait, there'll be others that will be ready when you are. And so don't let them push you into things. Remember, you are providing them something of value on which they are going to make money. The whole purpose of journalism at least in a business sense is to make money off of  that content. Either through ads, not saying there's anything wrong with it, it's just the business model. So, when you go on, you're doing them a favour. Are they helping your campaign? Absolutely. But they need content, you have content and in a sense, there's a marriage of convenience. And I think one other thing to remember is the objective here. You've got to remember, these folks are not, you got to be very careful about befriending journalists. And that may not go over very well with my journalist friends. But families have no leverage in that relationship and I'm not suggesting anybody would- but I've watched people be a journalist burn hostages and families. It happens with some frequency and sometimes it's intentional, sometimes it's not. Sometimes, it’s just flat-out ignorance or arrogance on the part of the [(36:00)] reporter, right? But got to remember they're not your friends, they are people with a job to do. And they're very effective at getting information. So, remember that you hold the cards and you set the boundaries. And quite frankly, there's oftentimes this panic that sets in when families get media requests. There's no obligation to respond to media requests instantly. There's no obligation to respond to one at all. They are media, they're not a court, right? They can't compel you to answer their questions. And if they push you to do or say something that you don’t want to do, say no. And then, the same advice I would give to a criminal defendant that had just gotten arrested at the side of the road, don't say a word in that situation. And you ignore everything the police officer says after you invoke your rights because they're allowed to lie. Same deal with journalists, if you're not comfortable, say no and hold your ground.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Agreed. Now, the next point is also very important - tone. When you campaign to free your loved one, always start with a hopeful message, one focused on love. Campaigns that use hope-based communications tend to unify people, not divide them. These unifying campaigns are the ones that attract the most supporters, and the most volunteers that campaign with you, giving you the opportunity to take a knee while someone else stands guard. Negative campaigns, for example, ones that criticise the leaders in charge, may get a lot of publicity, but whether you like it or not, these same leaders you're criticising are the ones that have to sign off on your loved one's release. It is absolutely fine to criticise leaders that do something wrong or don't do enough but don't [(38:00)] ever criticise them in bad faith. What's your experience with this?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Honestly, I want to take serve a non-traditional approach to this. I think families criticising government officials can be extremely effective and we are currently in the US, at this spot where I think our government needs to make up its mind on what it's going to do about these cases. It's been a year and a month. These folks are very smart, just ask them. They'll tell you, they're very smart. It shouldn't take a year to make a such simple decision, and it's time for words to stop and actions to start. And I do think it's important to make fact-based criticisms. It is not helpful, you can't run a, in the same sense that you can't manage immigration policy is on a baseball cap, you also can't fit a strategy to get a hostage back, the United States on a red baseball cap. This is all very complicated and your communication should reflect that complexity. A lot of the times, we communicate, we're locked in step behind the career officials that are doing the work every day. I think occasionally, there are criticisms of political decision-makers at a high level that I think are fair. And I think, unfortunately, in the United States one thing that does move the government is talking to them in the media and doing so in a very careful and strategic way but it works. And sometimes, when you're not being listened to, one of the ways to be listened to by the government is to establish proof. But if the government doesn't listen to you, you'll just simply elevate [(40:00)] the message in the press to the point where they have to listen to you. And that is a very effective strategy, but it has to be done cold. This is not something to do in anger with a bunch of emotions. This is, it is something to be done in cold blood and after a lot of strategic thinking.
 
 Daren Nair: 

That's true. Again, criticising the government is absolutely fine. Saying they're not doing enough, saying you're not doing the right thing, absolutely fine. As long as you do it in a way where it's in good faith and not in bad faith, that's fine. You don't want to be dismissed as a partisan doing this, as if you're trying to score points for the opposition party. As a family member campaigning to free your loved one, as I said at the beginning, you have to remain nonpartisan. Now, the next point is one which is, unfortunately, it's the state of the world we live in today. So, anyone who has lived life long enough, we'll be able to tell you that there are many reasons why life is unfair. One of them is racism and racial stereotyping. If you are an ethnic minority and have a loved one held hostage or wrongfully detained overseas, it is going to be harder for you to get the same media coverage as someone who is not an ethnic minority. As I said, this is the state of the world we live in today. It's wrong, it's unjust and it has to change. But change takes a lot of time and your loved one currently held hostage can't wait for institutionalised racism to be resolved. I've seen some families experience this and get very angry. I've seen them call out politicians and the media as racist for not giving them the same attention they would otherwise give another family [(42:00)] who wasn't an ethnic minority. In the six years I've been campaigning with hostage families, I've not seen this approach yield any positive results. I've seen other families who have experienced this same discrimination take a different approach where they focus on what we all have in common, love for family, the right to travel safely and freely to other countries, and the right to be protected by our government when we are taken hostage or wrongfully detained solely because of our passports, not because of anything we did as individuals. These approaches have been a lot more successful in many cases. As a person of colour myself living in Britain, these are the approaches I would recommend. From your side over in the United States, Jonathan what are your thoughts?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

I think it is absolutely the case that it is harder for people of colour. I think there's better data that it's harder for people of colour in child kidnapping cases, right? But I think you can extrapolate that to these wrongful detentions. And obviously, I have worked for families that are non-white. And I think there were challenges, but I have to say, one of those non-white families spent a lot of time on Fox News, and my issues with that network notwithstanding, right? I was really impressed and even inspired by how the Fox audience responded. And so, I would also suggest to folks it's not all about racism. Some of it is about the ADD universe that we live in. And reporters and bookers and producers that are just [(44:00)] trying to make effectively a reality show out of the news. And be persistent and keep sharing your message, and stand your ground. The fact that a couple of people on Twitter, don't like what you say is irrelevant. They're probably not even real people. I mean, I attract trolls just going to sleep at night. It's so automated these days that when you get any attention at all, you're going to get trolled. Just ignore them, block them, hide their comments and block them. Move on and move on to the light. What I often say to families because there were some horrible things in the comment pages and my thing to him is just don't read the comment pages. When's the last time you as a productive member of society decided to go to an article, go through the login process, and post some sort of nasty comment? We are not dealing with the cream of the crop of society on the comment pages, on any web page on the internet. And stand your ground, I don't know that kind of calling the media racist is a particularly effective tactic. But I think reminding them, is that your loved one is an American too, it's not a bad idea. And I work with veterans so in none of my cases were there many questions about the patriotism of the detainee. And one thing that you should not do is dignify stupidity with made-up nonsense that is just completely untrue about your loved one that pops up on Twitter. [(46:00)] If it’s not even true, there's somebody with 13 followers who posts something wacky, just move on. It's hard to do, but just move on. And I do think the media needs to do a better job focusing on some of these cases. I mean, there are 25 Americans that are all non-white hanging out in Kuwait, on drug charges that range from asinine to fabricated. And this is a country that let's be honest, exists because of the sacrifice of a lot of American men and women. So, you know nobody except one long-form writer has written that story. It's not hard to get in touch with these guys, they WhatsApp. So, it is that case in particular, 25 mostly black contractors, all with military pedigrees in a Kuwaiti prison for wackadoodle drug charges that may or may not be real and no one's listening
 
 Daren Nair: 

In your case, it's pretty unique because these individuals are also veterans. But they have to jump through hoops to prove that they are as American as others. And this is obviously a long conversation and it's something that's not going to be resolved any time soon. So, if you're a family member in this situation, focus on what you need to do right now in the short term. Get your loved one home and then we can work on tackling these institutionalized issues that are going to take a long time to resolve. And you also bring up one important point, don't respond to stupid comments. I have seen families responding to these comments on Twitter. Individuals that might be bots or might be trolls. From my experience, don't give them the oxygen. [(48:00)] I know some families that respond to these or quote tweet them because they have a strategy in mind and others that just get angry and just respond. So, I absolutely agree with what you say, don't give them oxygen. Focus on your message, message discipline, and maintain your mental health and your focus. Now based on your experience working with hostage families, what should the US government be doing to bring people home?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Real easy one at the moment. I don't know this but I suspect that the US government has yet to make a policy decision about whether it is willing to use the same kind of tools that the Trump and the Obama-Biden administration used to bring people home. And I think that's why we have only seen one case resolved by this administration since it took office. And it is tempting to get stuck in the Harvard and Yale debating societies and sit in an Ivory Tower and debate. These solutions to these cases are messy and they're politically unpopular and they're messy. And at this point, we've got to do something. And not only do we have to make this policy decision and decide to bring our people home. We then need to take a policy decision about how to punish all of the foreign nationals that were involved in these hostage-takings. And there's a clear authority under the Levinson Act to do that.
 
 And I think you've heard from a lot of families recently, about a desire for a more robust response from the US government, I call it throwing an elbow, there’s a more diplomatic way to say it, it is a more robust response. We're not talking about hurting anyone. We're not talking about violating UN Human Rights. We're simply talking about [(50:00)] using the levers of power the US possesses to exert pressure. It's bizarre to me that we have an American sitting in a country like Rwanda. Allegedly, very friendly to the United States. And it's even more bizarre to learn that their government was using Pegasus to spy on his daughter. And the Rwandan Embassy in Washington was spying on his son who is in class at Texas University. And it’s bizarre behaviour for a country that has been a beneficiary of the generosity of American taxpayers for a long time. And we have to decide as a country. And I think the UK sits in the same spot, what are we willing to do to bring our people home? And are we willing to continue playing make-believe with some of these folks out there in the world like the Saudis, for instance, who are not only taking hostages but openly torturing people? And people that engage in hostage diplomacy, autocrats, these are people that don't care what the consequences of their actions are and really don't have any principal or integrity. So, it has always struck me as a little bit farcical to treat thugs like their diplomats. And I think we need to be much tougher on people like the judges involved in these scams, the prosecutors, the police officers, be elected officials. The people we need to deny them quarter in what I would call the democratic first world. And that's a tough decision to take in one that we [(52:00)] haven't been willing to take so far. And thus the reason we continue to have Americans taken hostage. I think also, it would help tremendously if Americans would stop going to such high-risk places.
 
 Going to Russia right now as an American is silly. And I'm sitting here in February thinking of American spring break, next month in March. And the number of American families that with seeming total disregard for the arrest send their American teenagers and twenty-somethings to go get drunk and be obnoxious in somebody else's country for a week or two. And then invariably some percentage of them find themselves afoul of some complex legal systems, I don't have a whole lot of regard for the legal processes in Mexico. Having lived that with a client, I find that it's a system that's in need of incredible modernization and one where I'm wondering where the billions the US invested in the Mexican legal system over the last couple of decades. Where that went? This is not a place where I would be sending my teenagers or college-age kids. And consider this rather than sending your kids to Mexico, or the Dominican or Aruba, or places where we know things have happened to American kids. Send them to the Virgin Islands, we have bubbly US Virgin Islands that are on American soil in the Caribbean. Send them to Puerto Rico, American soil. That's what I think we've got, there's this tendency as an American to think that we can walk the world as if we were in the early Roman Empire, the citizens of Rome can walk the whole world, the face of the Earth unharmed, right? As I said we're not Rome and we have not been willing to use that kind [(54:00)] of power on people.
 
 Even illegitimate actors like the Burmese Junta, we have not been willing to use power the United States has to punish these folks for hostage-taking. And until we do Americans, I think the same is true for citizens of the United Kingdom, probably true for citizens of any G7 country are appealing targets. And until our governments, it's wonderful that they all had signed a declaration of arbitrary detention. that's lovely. The people involved in arbitrary detention don't live in flowery diplomatic language. They live in thuggery. So, in a sense, until we start punishing these folks, I don't have a lot of hope that it's going to stop and I can't think of the last time we punish somebody severely who was involved in wrongful detention. We have all kinds of authority. You have no right as a foreign national to come to this country. They can be banned for life on entering this country. Visa bans, things that we do all the time to people who steal money. But were unwilling to do it for people, it's literally stealing Americans, plucking them off the street. And I'd like to see the US government throwing some elbows. And rendering fairly significant consequences to everybody involved in these. I'd like some judges in these countries who go along and rubber stamp these sham trials to have the fear of God in them. That if they go along with this in railroad, there's nowhere in the free first world that they're going to be able to go, nowhere.
 And I think that will make people think twice.
 
 Daren Nair: 

I agree with you that there has to be a consequence for hostage-taking. How its implemented, however, needs a lot more debate. For instance, there are many families of Americans and Brits, and people from other [(56:00)] countries that travel to Iran because they have family members that are very ill, even some family members who are dying, and they want to see them before they're gone. So, I know at least two or three that were taken hostage in Iran because they went there to visit their dying mother or their dying father,
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Or grandmother. And my client, Amir Hekmati’s case. Although she wasn't dying, he was just visiting his grandmother.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Yeah. So, I understand why they went to visit and why they were willing to take that risk. So, saying they cannot travel to a specific country, makes it very difficult.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Oh, I don't mean a travel ban on them going to Iran. I mean I would like to ban everyone in the Iranian Judiciary that has a role in these things from ever traveling to the United States, or any of the G7 countries.
 
 Daren Nair: 

That's a good point. I think with sanctions, I think with Magnitsky sanctions they're going after the assets of individuals at a high level. The thing about countries like Iran, Russia, Rwanda, Myanmar, where else, China, is that a lot of these individuals are following orders. I understand it's not a good enough excuse. So, they then get an order you need to do so and so you need to prosecute this individual. If you don't do it, you'll end up in prison right next to them. And we've seen some very brave lawyers in Iran, for instance, who defended these foreign nationals and ended up in prison as well. Evin prison has many lawyers of the defendants and we've seen this in other countries as well. I know the US for instance, has a travel advisory. So when I interviewed Trevor's family and Paul Whelan’s family, I read out the US travel advisory. It says I think for Russia, its “Level Four - Do Not Travel”. It gives you comprehensive information on there on what is the risk. But [(58:00)] more needs to be done to inform the public of the risks. Because there are still many American businesses doing business with these countries. There are many American businesses that want to do business with countries that we're currently sanctioning. So, I think this needs a lot more debate and you spoke about the American held in Rwanda. This is Paul Rusesabagina, he received the US Presidential Medal of Freedom. He saved 1,200 lives during the Rwandan Genocide, I interviewed his daughters, Carine Kanimba and Anaise Kanimba. So, if you want to listen to that episode and find out more, check out podhostagediplomacy.com or check it out on a podcast app. So, absolutely Rwanda is supposed to be an ally of the United States. In some articles, they've said US is reluctant to pursue this because they need Rwanda as an ally in that region. From a counterterrorism perspective, the Rwandan President has been very cooperative with the US government so they don't want to upset him. Hostage-taking does not happen in a vacuum. There are a lot of things going on.
 
 Now, if you're a member of the public and you want to help families of hostages, you can do many things to help these families bring their loved ones home. The first one is quite easy, sign their petition, if they have one. Number two, write to your local politician calling for their release. Number three, follow the families on social media and share their stories with your friends and family. Don't underestimate how important it is to show these families that they're not alone, that there is a world of care out there. As we mentioned at the beginning, it's very hard to keep up that energy to keep going, especially if you think no one cares or that you're alone. So, when families see that there are many people who care, that want to support them, it gives them the energy to keep going. The emotional aspect of this is very important and gets overlooked. So, emotional intelligence [(60:00)] is important especially given that we're coming out of a pandemic here, but mental health is definitely a big issue. It is very important for leaders of the United States government to talk about these individuals. Use their names, it matters.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Can I pause you there one second, Daren? Because you just said something that lights me up like a Christmas tree. It’s the difficulty, although I have to say, I want to be very clear. The US government has gotten much better about saying the names. There are some great examples of how the Trump Administration was good about saying names and so has the Biden administration been. The Obama-Biden administration left some significant room to improve on that front and I think government officials need to be clear that there is nothing more offensive than talking about somebody's loved one in the third person, right? They have a name, it's not an unnamed American Marine. Or some of the other goofy things I've seen listed. And for media folks up there, I've heard over the years a lot of second-guessing about if the family tells you they want you to use their loved one's name, use their loved one's name. There's no virtue in second-guessing that decision. And the US government over time has reasoning in various cases, none of which I agreed with. We're saying the name doesn't make any sense. They say, won't help, will get in the way. I wouldn't take that answer if I were the family member. I'd want the government to say my loved one's name constantly. It's just a respect thing, and it's not that hard.
 
 Daren Nair: 

I agree with you. There is nothing more powerful than the President or Prime Minister of a country [(62:00)] calling for your loved one's release. Saying that they are wrongfully detained or they're being held hostage, that they are innocent. I mean, you can get all these institutions, you can get all these journalists and media outlets saying the same thing. But the fact the leader of your country, says, you're innocent that you were wrongly detained, and they're calling for your release and they will do what it takes. There is nothing more powerful than that, apart from actually freeing them. So, it's very important to say their names. Now, going back to what members of the public can do. You can even write a letter to your local newspaper, saying why this is important to you and what you think the government needs to do to bring this innocent American home. Politicians pay a lot of attention to local media, don't underestimate how important local media is. So, that's what you can do as a member of the public. Now, Jonathan, you've done great work for hostage families. If someone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do so?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

They can shoot me an email. I'm pretty easy to find. You know my email is Jonathan, J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N at Lucid, L-U-C-I-D publicrelations.com and I'm really easy to find. And shouldn't hesitate to reach out with questions.
 
 Daren Nair: 

That's great. So, we're almost at the end of our interview. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about?
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

I think to the families, the Americans that are currently being held. We're at a time where our government needs a little help, getting over the goal line on bringing Americans back and it's never going to happen if one political side always lying in wait to make political hay out of the deals that have to be made [(64:00)] to bring folks home and it's not helpful. And I think there is an increasing unity in the Congress sort of for this work. But I say to families right now, right now is not a time to be silent. Right now is the time to raise your voices, make these stories known and make clear to all of your elected officials that you want this to be a priority and that you're upset that it hasn't been. And that only one hostage back in a year is not acceptable. And I think there's no question that the people that are working on these cases day to day have everyone's loved one's best interests at heart. No question to me. Sometimes I wonder about the very top of the political leadership, having the courage and the willingness to do what's right, even if it's not easy. Making deals to get bring back wrongfully detained Americans is not going to cause one party or the other to win an election. It needs to be something that is above politics. And until we get there, we are all going to have this problem. If we could all get on the same side of the table and say there is nothing, we're not willing to do to bring our people home. And there's nothing we're not willing to do to go after the people that are doing this. If we can get to that place, we are going to have a lot fewer folks taken. right? One reason, this has exploded recently. In recent years, as division has increased the ability to find unity has decreased, and actors that are the prime playing field for these sort of two-bit thugs, like Putin and Nicolas Maduro. And some of these other folks that are playing hostage diplomacy. And keep raising your voices, be respectful, be calm [(66:00)] and do it strategically. But don't be put off to the side and if you're not getting responses, it's time to make that clear. Don't take no for an answer. These folk's job is to bring your loved ones home, they get paid a government salary to do it. They're happy to engage but the political leadership at the top has to be held accountable when it fails to bring folks home. And the list is now just too long to count.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Jonathan, thanks again for all that you do for the families of hostages who are wrongfully detained overseas
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

And you, thank you.
 
 Daren Nair: 

You're welcome, it's an honour to help. We really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. Thank you for joining us.
 
 Jonathan Franks: 

Thank you.
 
 Daren Nair: 

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Pod Hostage Diplomacy. We're not just a podcast, we're a community. If you are on Twitter and would like to post a message of solidarity to the families or have any questions for us, please tweet it using the hashtag, #PodHostageDiplomacy and we'll get back to you. If you like what we're trying to do, please do consider supporting the show financially. You can do this using the 'support the show' link in the description of this podcast episode. Very grateful for any contributions, no matter how small. Thanks again for listening and we'll be back next week. Take care.
 
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