SITREP Pod 2: Free Kai Li, American held in China | Pod Hostage Diplomacy

SITREP Pod 2: Free Kai Li, American held in China

SPEAKERS

Daren Nair, Harrison Li

Daren Nair  00:05

Welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. We work to free hostages and the unjustly detained around the world. Together with their families, we share their stories and let you know how you can help bring them home.

Elizabeth Whelan  00:18

Now when it comes to using the family to get... for Russia to get what they want, if that's the case, they've picked the wrong family, because I'm not going to carry water for the Russian authorities.

Daren Nair  00:28

These are some of the most courageous and resilient people among us.

Mariam Claren  00:32

I never thought that my mother, Nahid Taghavi, will ever have a link to negotiations in Vienna about the JCPOA. That's so crazy.

Daren Nair  00:43

People who have never given up hope.

Paula Reed  00:46

Trevor told his girlfriend to tell me to... to be strong. So, I'm trying to be strong for Trevor. 

Joey Reed  00:50

You know, if Trevor can cope with what he's dealing with... 

Paula Reed  00:53

Exactly. 

Joey Reed  00:53

We can sure cope with the stress.

Daren Nair  00:55

People who will never stop working to reunite their families. 

Joey Reed  01:00

We'd like to meet with the President. We believe that, you know, he has... he's surrounded by lots of experienced and educated advisors. But I don't believe that any of them have ever had a child taken hostage by a foreign country, especially not a superpower like Russia.

Daren Nair  01:15

And we will be right there by their side until their loved one comes back home.

Richard Ratcliffe  01:20

Because if enough people care, then the right people will care enough.

Daren Nair  01:24

I'm Daren Nair, and I've been campaigning with many of these families for years. When I first started campaigning with these families, I noticed they struggle to get the media attention they needed. So, I decided to create this podcast, which is a safe space for the families to speak as long as they need to about their loved ones, and what needs to be done to bring them home.

Mariam Claren  01:45

Nobody can prepare you for what our family is going through. Even if someone had told me one year before, "in one year, this is going to happen. Prepare yourself." It's impossible.

Daren Nair  01:59

Thank you for listening, and welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. Welcome to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. China is notorious for wrongfully detaining foreign nationals to gain bargaining leverage over foreign governments. This is state-sponsored hostage-taking, also known as hostage diplomacy. The current US State Department's travel advisory for China has a Level Three Reconsider Travel rating, and includes the following warning to Americans planning on travelling to China. "Exercise increased caution in the People's Republic of China due to wrongful detentions." American citizen, Kai Li, who is a businessman from New York, has been wrongfully imprisoned in China since September 2016. The US State Department has designated Kai Li as wrongfully detained, and his case has been taken up by the US Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs. The United Nations Working Group on Arbitrary Detention has called for his immediate release. We've had the honour of interviewing Kai's son, Harrison Li, twice on our podcast. If you haven't already, please do check out these episodes wherever you get your podcasts or visit podhostagediplomacy.com, We always tell the families we interview that we will be campaigning right by their side until their loved ones come home, and we mean it. So, we'll keep you up to date with their campaigns through sitrep pods like this one, or breaking news pods. We're joined today once again by Harrison Li. Harrison, it's been nine months since we last spoke to you, and we are sorry that your father is still being wrongfully detained in China. We're also so sorry to hear that your paternal grandfather passed away a few days ago. Please accept our condolences. Welcome back, and thank you for joining us.

Harrison Li  03:48

Thank you for having me once again, Daren. It's a pleasure, as always,

Daren Nair  03:51

For our listeners who aren't aware of your father's case, can you please give them a summary of what happened?

Harrison Li  03:57

So, my father is Kai Li. He's an American. He's one of three Americans, who are being wrongfully detained by the Chinese government, according to the US State Department's designation under the Levinson Act, the other two being Mark Swidan and David Lin. In 2016, my dad went to China on the one-year anniversary of his mother's passing to spend some more time with his family. But before he could even get off the plane, agents from China's Ministry of State Security took him away and held him for 10 weeks, at an undesignated location, where they harshly interrogated him every day. And later, it became apparent that they were intent on accusing my dad on false charges of espionage and stealing, quote unquote, state secrets, which our attorney has verified can be freely found even on the internet in China. Unfortunately, that does not stop the Chinese government from saying that the information that my father is alleged to have had is a state secret. And, you know, we've seen repeatedly that the Chinese government uses these very similar espionage and endangering national security kinds of charges in order to arbitrarily detain foreigners. Some of the most high profile cases in... in recent years, of course, include the Canadians, Michael Spavor, Michael Kovrig, who were taken apparently in retaliation for the USA's arrest of Meng Wanzhou, the CFO of the telecommunications company, Huawei, and it should be noted that, you know, the two Michaels were given essentially the same charges as my dad. It's... it's a tried and true playbook. But unfortunately, while they have been able to come home, my dad continues to suffer in prison and has for almost six and a half years now.

Daren Nair  05:55

Again, we're so sorry to hear that. As I mentioned earlier, we last spoke nine months ago in April last year. Can you please give us an update on what has happened with regards to your father's case since then? Because I know, there's been a lot going on in China with regards to COVID-19 and lockdowns, and protests from citizens. So, what's happened since we last spoke?

Harrison Li  06:18

Yeah. So, in terms of the COVID-19 situation, obviously, that's... that's been fluid. But of course, you know, ticked up very recently, in the past month or two, you know. For several weeks, in December, and the first part of this month, my dad said he was confined 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to his cell. The prisoners weren't even allowed to take showers. They would just take a big bucket of water and deliver it in there for all the prisoners in the cell to use. So, that was for several weeks. Of course, my dad said, you know, that was not as bad as previously, when he had actually been under similar situations for a couple of months at the beginning of the pandemic. You know, it's... it's really an extremely challenging time in China, of course, with, you know, the COVID-19 surge. Unfortunately, my father learned last Friday that his own dad was one of the victims of the latest COVID-19 surge. It was actually the first day he had been able to leave his cell and go to his... his position, his work at the library, the prison library, but before he was there for two hours, prison guards just came up to him and then delivered him the bad news. And, you know, it was really, really, really sudden, for our entire family. We had no... really, no warning or advanced indication that, you know, my grandfather was imminently going to pass away. But it happened, you know, and I think the only message that... that my dad had and then that our family had is that well, you know, look, it's... it's been six and a half years, the last six and a half years, my dad hasn't been able to... to spend any time, you know, with his family. He, you know, he visited China initially in 2016, to commemorate his mother, who had passed away a year prior, but, you know, instead of being able to do that, he actually would never be able to see his... his other parent again. So, you know, I think this really underscores the passage of time for... for... for... for this case, and just how long it's gone on. And, you know, all we can hope is that, you know, in my grandfather's memory, this spurs greater action and interest in the case to get my dad out before something else bad happens to him, another member of his family. And, you know, we just urge our own government to... to... to increase the pressure on, you know, on the Chinese government to get my dad out, because it just doesn't seem like that... that level of pressure has... has been applied in our case. Now, in terms of the actual case, you know, there had been very few developments, you know, on my dad's case, or the other cases in China to the best of my knowledge. However, of course, we have seen in the last... really last nine months, over a dozen Americans, wrongfully detained, have come home from around the world. Most recently, of course, Brittney Griner, the celebrated basketball star who came home from Russia. And I think, you know, that gives our family a renewed sense of hope that our own government, at least, is paying attention to this issue of wrongful detention and hostage diplomacy, and that they are willing and able to take the steps necessary to correct these situations. However, we're concerned that we just haven't seen this kind of action from China. And of course, we're told by various folks that China's different, China's difficult and you know, we don't doubt that. We know, and we know it's hard. And we see many folks in our... in our own government who fight every day for my dad and the other Americans wrongfully detained in China. But it's hard to know, because, you know, we've heard a lot of those kinds of things in the past that turned out to be really just... just excuses for... for inaction from the government, our own government. And, you know, we saw, you know, last year, of course, at end of 2021, you know, the US played an instrumental role in... in securing the release of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig. They've been able to get a couple of Americans under exit bans in China home. And so, you know, those are things that they're able to do, then, you know, it shows that it's not impossible, and our government just needs to act, you know, and iterate more quickly in order to... to get to a solution.

Daren Nair  11:12

As I said before, we're so sorry about your grandfather's passing. And just before we go, I asked you more on how your father's doing right now and how he's been dealing with that news. You mentioned that the US helped secure the release of a few Americans, who were held in China as a result of exit bans in late 2021. So, I read a long article by The Wall Street Journal, where they talk about how the two Michaels were released, and your father's mentioned in this article. It says that the US government did try to get your father out as well, but apparently, that didn't work out. Do you know any more information about this? Or is it something you can share?

Harrison Li  11:57

Yeah, I mean, look, when that article came out, I learned a ton from that article that nobody, you know, had ever told me privately, you know, and, of course, you know, the folks in our government always tell us, you know, they're going to be as transparent as us... as they possibly can. But, you know, clearly, there are other people that are privy to much more information that they're willing to tell the reporters but not share with our family, maybe you know, out of fear that our family is going to react negatively and cast a negative spotlight on our government, which, you know, I mean, it sounds perverse. But, you know, we've just seen, you know, lots of... lots of evidence of that. I would say one example of that was, you know, this past June, our family finally got a call with National Security Adviser, Jake Sullivan. That was after many, many months of asking. He had done a big group call of large group of American hostage families in December 2021. And then we'd all requested for... for follow up individual calls, which he promised himself on the calls. But the only reason we got that call in June is because another... another family wrongfully detained in China had a health emergency. And that's really what, you know, what spurred the action once that... that health emergency was... was made... made known. Then, you know, that family got a call from... from... from Jake within a couple of days. And then they scheduled a call with our family, you know, a week or two after. So, you know, I think that just illustrates to us that, you know, our government is fundamentally being very reactive on these cases. They're not being proactive, and actually taking steps to resolve. Now going back to that... to that article on the two Michaels and, you know, I didn't know my dad was mentioned at the time. I mean, nobody ever told me that this... this even came up. So, I learned about that at the same time as... as you did. Um, all I know, is that, you know, those, you know, the efforts that, you know, whatever efforts were put, certainly were not successful, or were not even, you know, close to successful. I know that the American government both, you know, at the end of the Trump Administration, and the beginning of the Biden Administration, brought up my dad's name, you know, in these kinds of talks, but it seems like it was never seriously under consideration.

Daren Nair  14:15

Now, going back to your grandfather and your dad, was your grandfather ever able to visit your dad in prison?

Harrison Li  14:24

No, not at all. The only contact they had, of course, my dad has two to three, seven-and-a-half-minute voice calls with the outside world. He typically uses one of those per month to call his family in China, which would be his... his own dad and perhaps his brother, who live in China. But other than that, you know, there was one time when the Chinese authorities granted a special exception to allow a single video call. So, one of those audio calls became a video call. This was several years ago, but other than that, there's been no... Nobody else has been able to see my dad or anything like that.

Daren Nair  15:06

So, how's your dad doing right now, and how's his health? Because I know the last time we spoke, you mentioned that he had a stroke before. So, how's he doing right now?

Harrison Li  15:17

Yeah. So, you know, to be honest with you, Daren, I don't know, because I... you know, since my grandfather passed, all we got that day was a rushed seven-and-a-half-minute call, um, you know, on these monitored lines, and that's... that's all the information we have, right, from... from my dad. There's no other way to get anything else. Yeah, you could write a letter. But the last time we did a letter, the Ambassador, Ambassador Burns, sent a letter to my dad, and even that letter from the Ambassador took a month to get to my dad. It was a birthday letter, which was supposed to be for November 9th, my dad's birthday, and then he got it in early December. So, there's really no good way to know how he's doing. And you know, of course, as I mentioned before, these... these... these calls, these audio calls, they're tightly monitored by the authorities. All I know, from that one seven-minute call, seven-and-a-half-minute call was, you know, my dad, you know, he said, his health, you know, feels a bit more stable now. But yes, he did suffer a stroke, suddenly, November of 2020. He's still taking medication as a result of the fallout from that. And, you know, of course, we asked him about the COVID-19 situation, because that's... that's really spreading like wildfire all over China. And he said, "yeah, there are definitely positive cases in the prison." You know, he didn't offer any more detail than that. And he said, you know, he personally wasn't too worried. But of course, you know, the news of his father's passing, of course, is, you know, from COVID, is not... not encouraging. And especially, of course, prison populations are extremely vulnerable to the spread of COVID. My dad previously was in a cell with ten others. Now, it's been reduced to five or six. But, you know, still, of course, those are close quarters, where COVID will inevitably spread rapidly. And, you know, we... It'd be nice if the Chinese government, you know, would... would take that into account and, you know, at least temporarily, you know, allow the prisoners to be released, like Iran did on... at the beginning of the pandemic. But, you know, the Chinese government is... is denying that there is even a... a COVID-19 crisis. So, the chances of that we... we see as being quite slim.

Daren Nair  17:35

I know you've mentioned, in previous conversations that we've had, that the US Embassy has not... People from the US Embassy in China have not been able to visit your father, and all they could do was have calls with your dad. So, is that still the case? Has Ambassador Burns been able to visit your dad? Or has anyone else from the Embassy been able to visit him? And if not, how frequently do they call him?

Harrison Li  18:02

Yes. And no, that situation has not changed. There have been no in-person visits, not even video calls from anyone with my dad. You know, since we last spoke, there's been no in-person consular visit in more than three years now. And the consular phone calls that have replaced them... So, there used to be in-person 30-minute visits. Now, they're just seven-and-a-half-minute audio calls on that same monitored system that my dad uses to call home. But yeah, that happens once a month, as... as afforded for by the... by the Vienna Convention, and Ambassador Burns has been able to do two of those calls himself, but otherwise has not had any access to my dad.

Daren Nair  18:49

So, it's good to know that Ambassador Burns himself has spoken to your dad. On the last episode of Pod Hostage Diplomacy, I spoke to Peter Humphrey, who is a British citizen, a former fraud investigator and former journalist. He and his American wife were both wrongfully imprisoned in China for almost two years. Peter now mentors families with loved ones wrongfully imprisoned in China. He helped you as well. He mentioned that the consular visits he received from the British Embassy and his wife received from the American Embassy during their time in prison were more like a messenger and nanny service. That means they would ask him how he was doing and they will pass on and receive messages. That's pretty much all they did. He also said these individuals sent by the UK and US embassies were quite junior and didn't really know much about China. You just mentioned that your dad has been able to speak to Ambassador Burns himself, who has a decent amount of experience. But what has the experience been like for your father and your family?

Harrison Li  19:49

Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, by and large, you know, Peter and his wife were held in the exact same prison where my dad is, and yeah, certainly, I mean the role of Consular Affairs, as any employee there will giddily remind you, is solely to focus on, you know, safety and well being of the American citizens being wrongfully held. So, they do not, you know, advocate for... for their release, even though my dad is considered wrongful. That's just not the purview of the Consulate, or the American Citizen Services, which is the division within Consular Affairs that... that handles the... the visits to my dad. So yeah, I think, you know, a nanny service is quite accurate. I mean, it's sort of just a way for us to pass messages to my dad and make sure that, you know, he gets them because, of course, you know, you know, the... we have the calls. But other than that, you know, for write letters, you know, they're not going to go through. There's a good chance they'll just get lost, and at best, they'll be delayed for a long time. So yeah, it's really just, you know, a good way to pass messages and, you know, a place for my dad to say any, you know, concerns he has about his... his health or anything like that. But you know, even that is not very effective. Like, when my dad suffered from the stroke, Consular... Consulate didn't... didn't get notified. We only found out, you know, after my dad missed his... his scheduled call with us the normal time, and then we had to do some digging and call the Consulate ourself on a weekend on the emergency number and to try to find out what happened. And you know, we didn't get the medical reports until a few weeks after. So, yeah, even, you know, even in that singular role, it's not always that effective, you know. As to Ambassador Burns, of course, we're super glad, and my dad is, of course, super glad that he was able to do two of the recent calls. You know, it took a lot of work, of course, on elevating this case in time, you know, to get to the level where, you know, the Ambassador of the United States to China will finally, you know, pay attention and do this kind of thing. We're very grateful that he did that. And he, you know, he said he wanted to do another call with my dad later this month. So, we hope that that will still happen. But... but yeah, you know, that's, you know, the experience of consular services. And, you know, to be honest, I mean, my dad is in Shanghai, which is, of course, you know, a very cosmopolitan city. My understanding is that in other parts of China, the situation is... is even worse. So, you know, it's really, yeah, it's really, really dreadful situation all around.

Daren Nair  22:21

So, why is it the US Ambassador for China has now started calling your dad after over six years? So, you said you've done a lot of work. Is this because you... your campaign is a lot more public than it was previously? Why has it taken so long to get this level of attention?

Harrison Li  22:41

Yeah, that's a great question. I, of course, I don't know the exact answer to that. But, look, I mean, for the first two and a half years, our family was completely quiet, right? There was no articles out there about my dad, because, you know, the government had convinced us that, "hey, being quiet would be the, you know, the best way to resolve this, right? And making noise would just not be productive," and so on and so forth. But then, of course, after two and a half years, and you know, my father had been sentenced to 10 years in prison for something he didn't do, we realised, "okay, wait a minute, the... like, that didn't work, right?" And then we, of course, we knew that, you know, the only reference case we had at the time was that of Sandy Phan-Gillis, who came home after about two and a half years. But you know, that her husband ran a really public, really active and really targeted campaign. And that seemed to work. So then, you know, that made us think, "Well, geez, we're probably not doing the right thing." Now... so, you know, we went public in early 2019, and then that's when we also submitted the application to the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention. But, you know, of course, even that, in itself, you know, didn't get the same attention. I mean, we'd met with Ambassador Terry Branstad at the time, you know, in person. And, you know, he was very nice, but there was just no way to follow up, you know. We would ask for... for follow up through our channels and never got it. Even with Ambassador Burns, after he took office, we were not able to make contact with his office. We tried everything, we could, of course, through the Consulate but also through our contacts in the State Department over at DC. And, you know, it didn't work until one day, I think it flipped a switch that it finally got to... to Ambassador Burns himself. He finally got the memo and heard about it, and then, you know, look, it's like a flipped switch. I think once he personally knew about these cases, he... he... he, you know, clearly wanted to invest himself in these cases. And then, you know, we've been able to have, you know, direct email contact and things like that since then. So, you know, yeah, why, as to why it took so long, I mean, I think a big part of it is just, you know, navigating the bureaucracy to even get the attention of the Ambassador. It's not the full story because, of course, you know, we... we met with Terry Branstad, but you know, he just kind of was never able to find a way to follow up, and I think maybe, you know, we've also learned in these last six years, you know how to... how to advocate more effectively, and that means, you know, when... when... when, you know, meeting somebody or you know, we... we have to ask for specific direct contact information, right? And tricks like that, you know, really are important and follow up and things like that. And then being regular about it, and then being creative, you know, leveraging your contacts and your network of contacts that's just growing and growing and growing. You know, that... that's... that's what you have to do.

Daren Nair  25:27

Well, that's good advice, especially for other families in the same position as yours. So, how have you and your family been coping? You're doing your PhD at the moment? Are your professors understanding of your situation when it comes to workloads and assignment deadlines, etc? I'm not saying you're the type of person that's going to use this as an excuse, but I'm saying how are you coping, running a campaign, running the Free... Free Kai Li Campaign and your daily commitments?

Harrison Li  25:57

Yeah, I mean, thanks for the question. I mean, certainly, I will say, um, you know, of course, a PhD is a challenge and takes a lot of time. But you know, I think the big advantage is that it's... it's quite flexible, you know, compared to... to an ordinary day job. And, you know, that's... that's been really helpful, because, you know, it lets me take calls during the day and things like that, and yeah, that's not something I was able to do when I was working full time. So yeah, I mean, look, it's... it's... it's challenging, but you know, I just think of, you know, how much worse it is for my dad. And I think, "well, this is, you know, not so bad." And we, you know, we do... we... we, you know, I just got to, you know, do what I can. I mean, you know, my dad, you know, always supported me and raised me so well in the first 18 years of my life. Then he was taken away from me, and now it's... it's my turn to... to do everything I can for him. And I just, you know, I'm frustrated and saddened that it's... he's still... he's still there, and it's been so long. I mean, I certainly would have thought he'd be... be out by now. And, you know, of course, you think about all the efforts you've put in and, you know, it's still see no result, of course, is... it's frustrating and can be, you know, almost debilitating on certain days. But you just have to remember that, if you don't do anything, nothing's going to happen. I mean, I think that's... that's abundantly clear. So, yeah.

Daren Nair  27:18

Well, your resilience is amazing. Stay strong, and keep up the great work. What should the Chinese government be doing better? Now, I asked Peter Humphrey, the same question, and I said, "yes, it might fall on deaf ears, but it's worth stating, in case someone is listening, someone who can do something about this is listening."

Harrison Li  27:40

Yeah, I mean, that's a good question, of course. Well, the short answer is, of course, they can release my dad and the other Americans wrongfully detained. But, you know, to expand on that a bit, you know, I think the Chinese government in recent weeks, especially, they've said a lot about, you know, wanting to, you know, to cooperate and talk with the United States. And I know that, you know, they've, you know, opened channels of communication, you know, with the United States on a wide range of issues. Of course, Secretary Blinken is scheduled to visit China in the coming weeks. And, you know, that's... that's terrific. But, you know, I would just want to remind the Chinese government that, you know, while you're arbitrarily detaining innocent, ordinary Americans for political leverage, you know, how can the United States cooperate in good faith? And, yeah, you might think that we're, you know, we're three people, so the United States is not going to pay attention. But, you know, just look at how much attention this issue of Americans being wrongfully held, has gotten all the way up to the President himself. And, you know, that was spurred by, you know, just looking at, you know, recent actions and that the President himself has taken to release, you know, to win the release of so many... so many Americans wrongfully detained around the world. So, the United States government is certainly paying attention. And, you know, it's a very easy thing to the Chinese government. I know, there's lots of very challenging bilateral issues that are not going to be resolved anytime soon. But this doesn't have to be one of them. I mean, you can just, you know, put my dad on a plane, and then, you know, this... this is one easy thing that you can just knock out. So, you know, if... if you're in the Chinese government, you're listening to this, I mean, just... just remember, you know, we're... we're innocent Americans, that, you know, that this happened to, and, you know, my... my dad, you know, still loves his... his home country of China. But, you know, having been subjected to this, it's... it's, you know, it's... it's difficult to see, you know, what... why... why he's being treated like this other than because he's... he's now an American citizen and being used as part of these larger political dynamics that, you know, ordinary families like us should really have no part in.

Daren Nair  30:01

What should the US government be doing better?

Harrison Li  30:03

Yeah. So, I mean, I've been asking, you know, for the US government, specifically President Biden, to negotiate for my dad's release, along with the release of David Lin and Mark Swidan, with at least the same intensity that he has, you know, with the Brittney Griner case, because, you know, we saw that that was very successful. Of course, you know, she's a very high profile celebrity figure. She had just so much and a huge outpouring of support. And that, undoubtedly, of course, put more pressure on the Administration to act. And now, you know, to be 100% clear, nobody in our family or any of the other hostage families is upset that Brittney came home, and any attempts by journalists or anybody else to spin in that way are completely disingenuous, right? We're all happy to see any wrongfully detained American come home, because, you know, these are Americans that, by definition, are being held for political reasons. And so they should not be there. And they're suffering needlessly, so they should all come home. And we just asked the President to remember that there... there are just so many other cases, especially in China, where unfortunately, his Administration has not been successful yet, at least for, you know, the wrongful detainees. And, yeah, I mean, you know, we reiterate .our request, President Biden, to meet with you. You've already met with several families, including the Griner, Reed, Whelan and Tice families. Our families in China deserve that same recognition, especially, you know, if our.. our loved ones' release is indeed a personal priority, as you have said in statements. I mean, we... we need to see actions back those words up. We've heard so many words. We've heard thousands of times, literally, that, you know, my dad's release is the highest priority of our government, and that they're doing everything they can. But you know, we just haven't seen that in, you know, in the action. I mean, it just, you know, we... we see how long it takes just for our government to even, you know, do one thing, take one step in the direction of... of negotiating for my dad's release, and, you know, it that just can't happen. And we understand there's a huge, you know, bureaucracy and a lot of factors to consider. But, you know, we've seen that, you know, when push comes to shove in these other countries, when decisions need to be made, they can be made very quickly, very expeditiously and very decisively. And that's... that's, you know, it's the job of our President and... and his Administration to... to protect these Americans who are... who are innocent and being used as... as pawns by foreign governments. Because if not, then, you know, that's sending the message that ordinary Americans are not safe when they travel abroad to a lot of these countries. And, you know, I see a lot of criticism online these days, that, "well, okay, Americans then just shouldn't go to these countries, right?" But it's really not so simple. I mean, remember, you know, my dad is every bit of an American citizen as anybody else. But, you know, he is... the rest of his family is all in China, right? So, of course, you know, he has to go visit, I mean, you know, right? And he should have the right to visit without being arbitrarily detained for political reasons. I mean, that's... that's... the burden shouldn't be placed, right, on the individual to not visit these places that they have very, very good reasons to visit. And, you know, I just... so, that's... that's not the solution, right? The solution is... is to get these Americans out and simultaneously, you know, send a message, put in deterrence efforts to... to prevent this from happening more. And I, you know, I think our Administration recognises this... this duality between, you know, getting home the current American prisoners, and also deterrence as provided for in President Biden's recent Executive Order. We think that's, you know, that's a great step, and, you know, it's the right framework, but now we just need it to be... to be acted upon, so that we actually get real results and our family can be reunited.

Daren Nair  34:08

So, there were seven Americans who were wrongfully detained in Venezuela for years, and they were released in October last year. Mark Frerichs, who was held in Afghanistan, for two and a half years, he was released last year. None of their families met President Biden. And yes, I understand. I... I know that Trevor Reed's family met President Biden. Brittney Griner's family met President Biden and the Vice President, as well. Paul Whelan's sister, Elizabeth Whelan, met President Biden, too. Austin Tice's family met President Biden as well. But Paul's... Paul's not home, Austin Tice is not home. Brittney and Trevor are, but my point is meeting the President of the United States... I agree, it's a recognition that all the families of Americans held hostage, wrongfully detained abroad, deserve to know and to hear from him that his Administration is working to bring your loved ones home. But it doesn't... Not meeting the President doesn't mean your loved ones not coming home as you've... as we've seen with the cases of the Venezuelan-Americans in Venezuela, and Mark Frerichs. So, how important is this to you?

Harrison Li  35:25

Yeah, that's a great observation and a correct question. Look, it's not 100%, right? It's not like, oh, meeting with the President, and then, you know, your loved one will come home, and if you don't meet with the President, your loved one won't come home, right? That's not how it works. I mean, I study statistics, and, you know, as I would like to, you know, as I like to say and think, I mean, you know, there's... there's always uncertainty. But, you know, the fact of the matter is, even if you meet with the President directly, then you know, he will personally remember, right, this case, and you know, of course, he's the one at the top who has the authority, right, to make the kinds of decisions that are necessary. Now as SPEHA Carstens, Roger Carstens, the head of the SPEHA Office always says, you know, the other side gets a vote, right? And it's, you know, every situation and the timing of things is, of course, always fluid. So, you know, no, it's not as simple as, oh, you just got to convince the US government to flip the switch, right? And then immediately, your loved one will come home. It's, of course, not that simple, right? But the reason meeting with President Biden is important to us is, one: it's very, you know, concrete, and completely within the control of the US government, right? It's something the US government can do. They just have to do it. Number two, you know, it's... it's... it's a single action that, you know, we have seen, you know, especially with cases like the... like the Reed case, and the Griner case, and the Whelan case, you know, it flips a switch for... for more, you know, more action and much, much quicker action from our own government, because when it's coming from the top down, it's just gonna be faster. Right? And that's... that's... that's the reason, you know, we asked for it. It's not that, yeah, once we meet with the President, that's our end goal, right, and then we're done, right? That... that's... that's not it at all, right? But it's an important first step. And yeah, it may not be 100%. necessary, right? But, you know, from what...what we see it's... it's among those things that can be... can be really helpful. And yeah, nothing is, you know, the... We've tried so, so many things, and these last six, six plus years, and most of them, you know, have probably had, you know, now looking back, we realised they probably, you know, were, unfortunately, just big wastes of time, right? But that's because, you know, we just... we just don't know, right? And we just try everything that we can have the energy to... to... to push for. But, you know, so you know, when you have something like meeting with the President, that where there's documented evidence that... that it makes something better. And that's a pretty good proposition to ask for, because there are very few things like that, in this... in this enterprise, if there's anything that we've learned.

Daren Nair  38:06

I absolutely agree with you. From a campaigning perspective, meeting the President of the United States face-to-face shows that you've, in terms of your advocacy, you've gone as high as you can. And I mean, that's... that's all pretty much you can do, apart from lobbying China, trying to convince China to change their behaviour, which is going to be a lot more difficult. So, I agree with you meeting him from a campaigning perspective, from your perspective, what you can do is go to the highest levels of government and get that commitment from President face-to-face that he's going to do everything he can to bring your loved one home, I've noticed that you've been able to get a bit more media attention on your father's case. But most of this coverage only takes place when another American was recently freed from captivity. So, what can journalists and the news media do to help? 

Harrison Li  38:57

And that's a great question. And, you know, to your point about, yeah, this coverage coming, you know, on the heels of other Americans being released and things like that. I mean, look, that's... that's why, you know, I joined the steering committee for the Bring Our Families Home Campaign, because, you know, I realised that hey, like, when we're all together and pooling our resources and experiences, then, you know, we can be a lot louder than just one family can be and so that's, you know, I think that's... that's the reason why that's happened. And, you know, yeah, we've seen that, you know, I think the success is largely of raising awareness of these cases, including my dad's case, you know, just comes from us, you know, coming together and making more noise, which also has, of course, you know... We've been told by very senior government officials that has directly helped, you know, a lot of those releases that did... that did occur. In terms of, yeah, journalists, what they can do? Well, you know, for a start, they can make sure everyone at the top of our government is even aware of my dad's name. What they can do is, you know, in every White House press briefing on China, they go ask, "hey, what's the latest on... on Kai Li, right, and the other Americans wrongfully detained in China?" You know, we saw that, you know, there was a brave journalist that did that the day after Brittney Griner came home, asking about Emad Shargi in Iran. That... that journalist asked the White House press secretary, Karine Jean-Pierre, and she clearly did not even know who Emad Shargi was, and that's, you know, from our perspective, one of the highest profile US cases of hostage diplomacy. But she didn't even know that name. I mean, it seemed like she only knew Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan. So, yeah, and so that in a response, you know, this week the Bring Our Families Home Campaign released a video, you know, introducing to her and all the other administration officials the fifteen families in our campaign. And so, yeah, I mean, it's shocking that, you know, after all these years, that's where we're at. But that is where we're at. So, you know, of course, the people at the top are constantly changing. So, you know, every time that happens, yeah, we just need the journalists to just, you know, make this, you know, a recurring issue. So that's... so that, you know, they know that they will be asked this and knowing that they will be asked this, they have to prepare, and hopefully that spurs some... some more action that they can point to, because if every single time they're asked about Kai Li and they never... don't have an answer, then yeah, I mean, that in itself will become a story and a negative... negative point for the... for the Administration, whoever's in charge, you know, whether that's the current administration or another administration, I mean, that's just how our government operates, because, you know, these officials are all elected by the... by the people.

Daren Nair  41:45

What can the public do to help bring your father home?

Harrison Li  41:48

Yeah. So I think, certainly, again, yeah, please support the Bring Our Families Home Campaign in any way, whether that's, you know, retweeting our posts, sharing our social media, pitching stories, donating so that we have the budget to put on demonstrations and advertising, to get the word out and encourage our government to take action. I think that's, at this time, perhaps, you know, the most direct way to help and of course, yeah, just, you know, if to anyone and everyone, you know, find a way to, you know, pitch the story of these Americans being held hostage, of course, including my dad. I think that's... that's the way to go, because, yeah, I mean, we've seen that, you know, when... when our government does get the spotlight shined on them, then they will have to react on and that's just how... how it works. It's not specific to this administration only. But it's just how it is. 

Daren Nair  42:48

So, if I'm a member of the public, and I want to know about... I want to know a lot more about your father's case, do I still go to freekaili.org?

Harrison Li  42:57

Yeah, freekaili.org has info. Probably, the most up to date would be to follow @FreeKaiLi on... on Twitter. So, I post there regularly. And yeah, I think that's... that's... that's the best way to get the most up to date information.

Daren Nair  43:11

Harrison, I've said this before, and I'll say it again. We'll be right here, campaigning by your side until your father's back home with you. Thank you for taking the time to speak to us today.

Harrison Li  43:20

Thank you, Daren, and appreciate you having me back on.

Daren Nair  43:28

Thank you for listening to Pod Hostage Diplomacy. Thank you for giving your time and for showing these families that they're not alone, that there are good, caring people out there, willing to stand by their side and help in any way possible.

Richard Ratcliffe  43:43

Because if enough people care, then the right people will care enough. This is a basic rule of thumb that is true of all campaigning.

Daren Nair  43:50

If you haven't already, please subscribe to our fortnightly newsletter called The Hostage Briefing. It's the best way to keep up to date with the cases we're working on as well as new episodes. You can subscribe to this newsletter using the link in the description of this podcast episode that you're currently listening to. Thanks again and take care.